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Questions for non-KJV-only's

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  • Originally posted by Trucker View Post

    Yeah we could ... except for the fact that we have some folks running around telling lies about the great modern English translations while making wild un-Scriptural, illogical claims such as the KJV is God's perfectly preserved inspired and inerrant word! If they'd just go read their KJV and leave off the garbage talk, we could all do what you suggest!
    Why do you think that that is garbage talk? Is there something in the KJV that you don't want to receive; thus your need to see it as in error?

    You'd rather people read their KJV to themselves and not witness to you with it. This tells me you might not even be a Christian. Are you one? (Since Beloved Daughter asked me the same question I believe the question is fair game).

    btw, the claims are not unscriptural. Have you never read Psalm 12:6, or Psalm 138:2b?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Beloved Daughter View Post

      One of your best posts ever!
      Thank you.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post
        Yeah we could ... except for the fact that we have some folks running around telling lies about the great modern English translations while making wild un-Scriptural, illogical claims such as the KJV is God's perfectly preserved inspired and inerrant word! If they'd just go read their KJV and leave off the garbage talk, we could all do what you suggest!
        Why do you think that that is garbage talk?
        So you do you think "telling lies about the great modern English translations while making wild un-Scriptural, illogical claims such as the KJV is God's perfectly preserved inspired and inerrant word" is not garbage talk?

        Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post
        Is there something in the KJV that you don't want to receive; thus your need to see it as in error?
        Why do you keep subtly misrepresenting what it is we object to???

        As you been told repeatedly, the problem is not the KJV per se. The problem is that ONLY part when the KJV contains obvious and provable errors such as Easter [Acts 12:4], God forbid [Rom 3:4 and additional places in Paul's writings]. Lucifer Is 14:12], and so on and on!


        Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post
        You'd rather people read their KJV to themselves and not witness to you with it.
        Why do you keep subtly misrepresenting what it is we object to???

        Sir, I worship regularly three times a week where the sermons are usually preached from the KJV, several of the classes are taught from the KJV, and so on. Witnessing from the KJV isn't the problem. King James ONLYISM is the problem because King James ONLYISM is a lie you cannot support with Scripture [want to try?], with logic want to try?], or with historical facts [want to try?]!

        Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post
        This tells me you might not even be a Christian. Are you one? (Since Beloved Daughter asked me the same question I believe the question is fair game).
        It tells you nothing of the kind, sir. That is the spin you try to put on it.

        Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post
        btw, the claims are not unscriptural.
        Try backing up your KJV ONLY claims with Scripture. Go for it and see how far you get with it!!

        Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post
        Have you never read Psalm 12:6, or Psalm 138:2b?
        Yeah .. I've read Psalm 12:6 and 138:2 .... IN CONTEXT. Your point is?

        Psalm 138:2b ?????
        Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

        Comment


        • [1] First off, you didn't answer my challenge at all. You just added more unsubstantiated opinion.

          [2] Even if true all you did was bolster our claim that regardless of which text family a translation is derived from THE THEOLOGY AND DOCTRINE WILL BE THE SAME if the text is correctly translated.

          [3] The issue here is that ONLY thingie ... NOT THE KJV per se


          trucker :

          1. - - - Your query is answered as far as I am concerned; you just don't like the answer.

          2. - - - We are not merely discussing theology and doctrine; the question to you is do you want a copy of the Word of God, or merely a faulty likeness of same. It is true that a person can get saved with the modern versions. If that makes you happy, then why don't you just throw out the OT because you don't need it to get saved or to live as a Christian.


          Comment


          • Originally posted by chtek View Post
            [
            1] First off, you didn't answer my challenge at all. You just added more unsubstantiated opinion.

            [2] Even if true all you did was bolster our claim that regardless of which text family a translation is derived from THE THEOLOGY AND DOCTRINE WILL BE THE SAME if the text is correctly translated.

            [3] The issue here is that ONLY thingie ... NOT THE KJV per se
            - - - Your query is answered as far as I am concerned; you just don't like the answer.
            "As far as your concerned" doesn't get it.

            Your "answer" didn't even try to provide the information I asked for. Why are you reluctant to provide the specific data where the alleged statements can be found in context? Lifting a statement out of it's intended context can result in entirely misrepresenting the author's intended meaning[s]. In other words an out of context quote can result in a half truth [which is a lie] or an outright lie
            .

            Originally posted by chtek View Post
            2. - - - We are not merely discussing theology and doctrine; the question to you is do you want a copy of the Word of God, or merely a faulty likeness of same.
            Glad you asked! What I wish for is an English translation that conveys as nearly as possible the intended meaning[s] of the original author. If there is reason to question the intended meaning I want the pros and cons presented to me HONESTLY. If/when I find misrepresentations, diversions, outright lies, and so on in a presentation I start digging. If the corpse I dig up stinks, so be it.

            You disapprove of that?


            Originally posted by chtek View Post
            It is true that a person can get saved with the modern versions.
            You bettcha! Just as it's true that a person can get saved reading and/or listening to sermons being preached from the KJV despite the errors!! The KJV per se is not the problem here, sir. King James ONLYISM is the problem. King James ONLYISM cannot be defended with Scripture, with logic, or with historical facts. Which explains why King James ONLYISM causes KJVO advocates to habitually misrepresent, divert, redirect, engage in ad hominem, and outright lie.

            Originally posted by chtek View Post
            If that makes you happy, then why don't you just throw out the OT because you don't need it to get saved or to live as a Christian.
            You really don't know? Or you're just trying to redirect the discussion?
            Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

            Comment


            • Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post

              Why do you think that that is garbage talk? Is there something in the KJV that you don't want to receive; thus your need to see it as in error?

              You'd rather people read their KJV to themselves and not witness to you with it. This tells me you might not even be a Christian. Are you one? (Since Beloved Daughter asked me the same question I believe the question is fair game).

              btw, the claims are not unscriptural. Have you never read Psalm 12:6, or Psalm 138:2b?
              Not a word of truth in this post. Hence, the scriptures teach not to engage in foolish controversies.

              You have already been refuted.
              It is fundamentally necessary and healthy for Christians to acknowledge that God foreknows nothing uncertainly, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks "free-will" flat…

              Martin Luther The Bondage of the Will

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Beloved Daughter View Post

                Not a word of truth in this post. Hence, the scriptures teach not to engage in foolish controversies.

                You have already been refuted.
                Nope.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Trucker View Post

                  So you do you think "telling lies about the great modern English translations while making wild un-Scriptural, illogical claims such as the KJV is God's perfectly preserved inspired and inerrant word" is not garbage talk?



                  Why do you keep subtly misrepresenting what it is we object to???

                  As you been told repeatedly, the problem is not the KJV per se. The problem is that ONLY part when the KJV contains obvious and provable errors such as Easter [Acts 12:4], God forbid [Rom 3:4 and additional places in Paul's writings]. Lucifer Is 14:12], and so on and on!




                  Why do you keep subtly misrepresenting what it is we object to???

                  Sir, I worship regularly three times a week where the sermons are usually preached from the KJV, several of the classes are taught from the KJV, and so on. Witnessing from the KJV isn't the problem. King James ONLYISM is the problem because King James ONLYISM is a lie you cannot support with Scripture [want to try?], with logic want to try?], or with historical facts [want to try?]!



                  It tells you nothing of the kind, sir. That is the spin you try to put on it.



                  Try backing up your KJV ONLY claims with Scripture. Go for it and see how far you get with it!!



                  Yeah .. I've read Psalm 12:6 and 138:2 .... IN CONTEXT. Your point is?

                  Psalm 138:2b ?????
                  for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

                  1) Nothing in the context changes the meaning of this statement.

                  2) God's name (who He is as a Person) is that He is infinitely perfect. So His testimony here is that His word is infinitely perfect; maybe even more than that.

                  3) If the KJV truly contains errors therefore, it is not His word; we ought to go somewhere else to obtain the message of salvation.

                  I guess that means that we have to become Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic scholars to obtain the unadulterated message of God's word; and therefore the message of salvation is not given to the common people at all: but only to the educated Pharisee.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post
                    for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
                    Let's look at the passage:
                    Psa 138:1 A Psalm of David. I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
                    Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
                    Psa 138:3 In the day when I cried thou answeredst me, and strengthenedst me with strength in my soul.
                    Psa 138:4 All the kings of the earth shall praise thee, O LORD, when they hear the words of thy mouth.
                    Psa 138:5 Yea, they shall sing in the ways of the LORD: for great is the glory of the LORD.
                    Psa 138:6 Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off.
                    Psa 138:7 Though I walk in the midst of trouble, thou wilt revive me: thou shalt stretch forth thine hand against the wrath of mine enemies, and thy right hand shall save me.
                    Psa 138:8 The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands. [KJV]
                    Nothing is mentioned about the KJV! Not in the entire chapter! Not in the entire book of Psalms! Not in the entire Old Testament! NOT EVEN IN THE NEW TESTAMENT!

                    You assume what you wish to assume and read it into the Scripture when it is not there to be read!!


                    Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post
                    [1) Nothing in the context changes the meaning of this statement.
                    But the KJV isn't mentioned!

                    Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post
                    [2) God's name (who He is as a Person) is that He is infinitely perfect. So His testimony here is that His word is infinitely perfect; maybe even more than that.
                    Yeah! But His word was inspired in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek ... NOT IN ENGLISH! All English translations are just that .. translations and by flawed men who cannot translate the entire Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek manuscripts into English 100% without error! ESPECIALLY WHEN WORKING FROM MANUSCRIPTS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN COPIED 100% PERFECTLY! And that is the situation whether or not you accept it.

                    Do you realize there are different wordings in the different editions of the KJV that are on the shelves of Christian bookstores??? So which specific edition of the KJV will you ASSUME is the inerrant one???? Tell us sir!

                    And none of them even mention the KJV anywhere in the text!!!

                    You assume!!


                    I know because I've been where you are!!


                    Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post
                    [3) If the KJV truly contains errors therefore, it is not His word; we ought to go somewhere else to obtain the message of salvation.
                    I would agree that errors such as Easter are not God's word and actually distort God's word. But that doesn't eliminate, change, or affect the Salvation message!! Again, YOU ASSUME ... WRONGLY!

                    Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post
                    [I guess that means that we have to become Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic scholars to obtain the unadulterated message of God's word; and therefore the message of salvation is not given to the common people at all: but only to the educated Pharisee.
                    Not when we have any number of good English translations that correctly convey the Salvation message ALONG WITH ALL THE HISTORICAL PROTESTANT CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES!

                    There is only something like .5% of the words that there is even any question or doubt about and NOT ONE OF THEM AFFECTS ANY HISTORICAL PROTESTANT CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE!

                    You assume far to much and far too often. And all over the basic assumption regarding the infallibility and inerrancy of the KJV when infallibility and inerrancy were never meant to apply translations!

                    Read FROM THE TRANSLATOR TO THE READERS HERE:
                    http://www.kjv-only.com/transaid.html

                    And here: http://feastupontheword.org/images/5...the_Reader.pdf

                    The KJV's translators never assumed what you assume for the KJVQ!!! They would not agree with your assumptions!!

                    Read THE CHICAGO STATEMENT ON BIBLICAL INERRANCY HERE
                    : http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html

                    You will find the signatures of some of the greatest Christian minds of the 20th century attached to that document!! And they don't agree with your assumptions!
                    Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post



                      3) If the KJV truly contains errors therefore, it is not His word; we ought to go somewhere else to obtain the message of salvation.
                      .
                      Your use of the fallacy of false dilemma does not come from the leading of the Holy Spirit of truth.

                      The 1611 edition of the KJV truly contained some errors, and later editions of the KJV corrected some of them. If the 1611 edition of the KJV was inerrant, later editions of the KJV introduced errors when they changed the renderings in the 1611 edition. The 1769 Oxford edition of the KJV truly contained some errors, and they remained in KJV editions for years before being corrected. One of the errors in the 1769 Oxford edition of the KJV remained in KJV editions for over 100 years. Are you directly claiming that those who read one of the KJV editions with an error could not obtain the message of salvation? There are present editions of the KJV that have some new errors introduced when printers started using a computer-based text in the 1980's. Perhaps you may have one of those editions of the KJV that has one of the new errors. Are you suggesting that you are not saved if you read one of the KJV editions with an error?

                      When or in what year do you claim that the first edition of the KJV was printed without an error?

                      Comment


                      • Re: post #175:

                        My contention is that the KJV does not contain errors as concerning doctrine: anything that may have changed in later translations from the 1611, I'm certain, did not change our understanding of doctrine.
                        Last edited by justbyfaith; 04-22-17, 01:25 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Trucker View Post

                          Let's look at the passage:

                          Nothing is mentioned about the KJV! Not in the entire chapter! Not in the entire book of Psalms! Not in the entire Old Testament! NOT EVEN IN THE NEW TESTAMENT!

                          You assume what you wish to assume and read it into the Scripture when it is not there to be read!!


                          quote of Psalm 138.

                          But the KJV isn't mentioned!
                          By the same reasoning the Trinity may not be considered to be sound doctrine since the word "Trinity" isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

                          Just because it doesn't say "KJV" in that passage doesn't mean that it isn't speaking of it. If the KJV is the word of God, then He has magnified it above all His name. His name (who He is as a Person) is that He is infinitely perfect. If the KJV is therefore less than infinitely perfect then God is also less than infintely perfect. Because He has said that His word is greater than His name.

                          Yeah! But His word was inspired in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek ... NOT IN ENGLISH! All English translations are just that .. translations and by flawed men who cannot translate the entire Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek manuscripts into English 100% without error! ESPECIALLY WHEN WORKING FROM MANUSCRIPTS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN COPIED 100% PERFECTLY! And that is the situation whether or not you accept it.

                          Do you realize there are different wordings in the different editions of the KJV that are on the shelves of Christian bookstores??? So which specific edition of the KJV will you ASSUME is the inerrant one???? Tell us sir!

                          And none of them even mention the KJV anywhere in the text!!!

                          You assume!!


                          I know because I've been where you are!!




                          I would agree that errors such as Easter are not God's word and actually distort God's word. But that doesn't eliminate, change, or affect the Salvation message!! Again, YOU ASSUME ... WRONGLY!



                          Not when we have any number of good English translations that correctly convey the Salvation message ALONG WITH ALL THE HISTORICAL PROTESTANT CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES!

                          There is only something like .5% of the words that there is even any question or doubt about and NOT ONE OF THEM AFFECTS ANY HISTORICAL PROTESTANT CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE!

                          You assume far to much and far too often. And all over the basic assumption regarding the infallibility and inerrancy of the KJV when infallibility and inerrancy were never meant to apply translations!

                          Read FROM THE TRANSLATOR TO THE READERS HERE:
                          http://www.kjv-only.com/transaid.html

                          And here: http://feastupontheword.org/images/5...the_Reader.pdf

                          The KJV's translators never assumed what you assume for the KJVQ!!! They would not agree with your assumptions!!

                          Read THE CHICAGO STATEMENT ON BIBLICAL INERRANCY HERE
                          : http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html

                          You will find the signatures of some of the greatest Christian minds of the 20th century attached to that document!! And they don't agree with your assumptions!
                          To the reader I say that the issue here is whether we can trust the KJV Bible that we purchase at the store. If it is not inerrant then how can we trust it? It could contain an error at any given point! I could be absorbing a lie in reading any given verse and not even realize it! Easter a distortion? Easter is resurrection day! The KJV rendering is edifying and powerful!

                          If at any point the KJV could be in error then in our dealings with the devil we cannot effectively combat him with "It is written..." He will just say to you, "That scripture is one of the scriptures that is in error." by the time you can get a copy of the scriptures in Greek, learn Greek, and check him on it he will have you right where he wants you.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post
                            ...<snip>..

                            3. If not, how do you establish truth?

                            ..<snip>...
                            Let's see what Jesus says about the subject.

                            " You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me, " ( John 5:39 )


                            " I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. " ( John 14:6 )

                            The TRUTH is -not- found in any translation. The scriptures point to TRUTH.

                            "The exact sciences also start from the assumption that in the end it will always be possible to understand nature, even in every new field of experience, but that we make no a priori assumptions about the meaning of the word "understand"."

                            Heisenberg
                            .....................

                            "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge." ( Psalm 19:1-2 )

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post
                              Re: post #175:

                              My contention is that the KJV does not contain errors as concerning doctrine: anything that may have changed in later translations from the 1611, I'm certain, did not change our understanding of doctrine.
                              So you're working from an entirely different definition of inerrancy than everyone else?

                              Comment


                              • Applying the same logic the Bibles prior to the KJV had to have been error free otherwise there was no way to combat Satan for over 1600 years. .

                                Using the same logic the first printing of the 1611 had to be error free but for some reason their was almost immediately a second printing and it was different.

                                Then subsequent printings ... all different.

                                Every error free Bible corrected by another error free Bible with different error free words.

                                Terrible situation.

                                But who needs a translation when we have the holy ghost?


                                Terrible situation!
                                Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

                                Comment

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