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  • #16
    Originally posted by inertia View Post

    The KJV translators followed the Wycliffe translation (1390 ) in specific passages and when they inserted a word to make the English better, it was italicized.

    This is not correct at all. What original Bible Translator first translated from the Original Greek and Hebrew?

    "I had perceived by experience, how that it was impossible to stablish the lay people in any truth, except the scripture were plainly laid before their eyes in their mother tongue, that they might see the process, order, and meaning of the text."

    William Tyndale, Preface to the Pentateuch, 1530

    http://www.bible-researcher.com/versions.html

    And it was the Geneva Translators after William Tyndale that italicized words that did not have an equivalent in the Greek/Hebrew.
    Last edited by Conan; 02-09-19, 04:16 PM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Conan View Post
      This is not correct at all.
      " Comparing the two translations shows how the KJV grew out of and built on the Wycliffe Bible, especially with the "Early Versions" poetic influence. Very often, the two texts are almost identical. "

      Reference: Bible Study Tools

      Example:

      In the Wycliffe translation, the word אָרֶץ or Eretz is translated using the old English word "erthe" in Genesis 1:1. Currently, the English word Earth is very nearly and exclusively used to mean planet Earth. Since Galileo's astronomical observations were not available until 1610, a full year before the King James translation in 1611, the historical precedence in the minds of the translators would have been well established meaning "land" or "ground", instead of planet Earth. Here Wycliffe and the King James translators were using the correct meaning of the Hebrew word "Eretz".

      They both got it right!

      Originally posted by Conan View Post
      What original Bible Translator first translated from the Original Greek and Hebrew?
      I understand that there were portions of the bible written in English a few centuries before Wycliffe by scholars and various monks.

      Originally posted by Conan View Post
      And it was the Geneva Translators after William Tyndale that italicized words that did not have an equivalent in the Greek/Hebrew.
      I didn't know that.

      Looking it up... In his own words:

      " And because the Hebrewe and Greke phrases, which are strange to rendre in other tongues, and also short, shulde not be so harde, I haue sometyme interpreted them without any whit diminishing the grace of the sense, as our langage doth vse them, and sometyme haue put to that worde, which lacking made the sentence obscure, but haue set it in such letters as may easely be discerned from the commun text. "

      Wow!

      Concerning the King James Version:

      " Sometimes words in a sentence are 'understood' in the other languages, so when the sentences were translated into English, extra words were added to make the sense clear. The italics show that the new words were not in the original texts. " Reference: Cambridge University Press online

      Example:

      " For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. " (KJV)

      The word "in" does not exist in the Hebrew.
      Last edited by inertia; 02-09-19, 08:35 PM.
      "The exact sciences also start from the assumption that in the end it will always be possible to understand nature, even in every new field of experience, but that we make no a priori assumptions about the meaning of the word "understand"."

      Heisenberg
      .....................

      " It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and it is the glory of a king to search out a matter. " ( Proverbs 25:2 )

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by inertia View Post

        The KJV translators followed the Wycliffe translation (1390 ) in specific passages and when they inserted a word to make the English better, it was italicized. Their effort was monumental. Still, an understanding of the "waw + noun -- perfect verb" construction and its use in Hebrew was not fully understood until ~ 60 years ago. ( page 40, Reading Genesis One, comparing Biblical Hebrew with English translation, and Zioiny Zevit, The Anterior Construction In Classical Hebrew, page 7)
        I have to join conan is disputing Wycliff translation being used by the KJV translators. The KJV is based upon the TR, Wycliff used the Latin Vulgate.

        https://www.g o t q u e s t I o n s/Wycliffe-Bible.html

        Something is amiss here. Perhaps logos1560 can be helpful.
        It is fundamentally necessary and healthy for Christians to acknowledge that God foreknows nothing uncertainly, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks "free-will" flat…

        Martin Luther The Bondage of the Will

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by inertia View Post

          " Comparing the two translations shows how the KJV grew out of and built on the Wycliffe Bible, especially with the "Early Versions" poetic influence. Very often, the two texts are almost identical. "

          Reference: Bible Study Tools



          Example:

          In the Wycliffe translation, the word אָרֶץ or Eretz is translated using the old English word "erthe" in Genesis 1:1. Currently, the English word Earth is very nearly and exclusively used to mean planet Earth. Since Galileo's astronomical observations were not available until 1610, a full year before the King James translation in 1611, the historical precedence in the minds of the translators would have been well established meaning "land" or "ground", instead of planet Earth. Here Wycliffe and the King James translators were using the correct meaning of the Hebrew word "Eretz".

          They both got it right!



          I understand that there were portions of the bible written in English a few centuries before Wycliffe by scholars and various monks.
          Wycliffe and his followers, and the earlier Angle/Saxon translations were from Old Latin and Latin Vulgate manuscripts, not the Original Hebrew.


          I didn't know that.

          Looking it up... In his own words:

          " And because the Hebrewe and Greke phrases, which are strange to rendre in other tongues, and also short, shulde not be so harde, I haue sometyme interpreted them without any whit diminishing the grace of the sense, as our langage doth vse them, and sometyme haue put to that worde, which lacking made the sentence obscure, but haue set it in such letters as may easely be discerned from the commun text. "

          Wow!

          Concerning the King James Version:

          " Sometimes words in a sentence are 'understood' in the other languages, so when the sentences were translated into English, extra words were added to make the sense clear. The italics show that the new words were not in the original texts. " Reference: Cambridge University Press online

          Example:

          " For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. " (KJV)

          The word "in" does not exist in the Hebrew.
          What verse are you quoting? Thanks.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Conan View Post
            Wycliffe and his followers, and the earlier Angle/Saxon translations were from Old Latin and Latin Vulgate manuscripts, not the Original Hebrew.
            That is correct.


            Originally posted by Conan View Post
            What verse are you quoting? Thanks.
            Exodus 20:11
            "The exact sciences also start from the assumption that in the end it will always be possible to understand nature, even in every new field of experience, but that we make no a priori assumptions about the meaning of the word "understand"."

            Heisenberg
            .....................

            " It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and it is the glory of a king to search out a matter. " ( Proverbs 25:2 )

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Beloved Daughter View Post
              I have to join conan is disputing Wycliff translation being used by the KJV translators. The KJV is based upon the TR, Wycliff used the Latin Vulgate..
              Hmm...

              I will try again. Wycliffe included a world-view, a paradigm, a model that the King James translators also retained.

              " more than 85% of the words used in the "Later Version" are direct precursors of current words, simply spelled differently "

              For example, Wycliffe translates the word in Genesis 1:1, Eretz ( אָרֶץ ) as erthe, meaning "land" or "ground" for example. Due to historical precedence the King James translators had the same world-view because Galileo's observations about planets and planet Earth were not available until 1610, only one year before the 1611 KJV was printed. Of course, today when one says Earth, most of the time people mean planet Earth.

              Both translations are correct because the Hebrew word Eretz means "land" or "ground". It does not mean planet Earth.


              "The exact sciences also start from the assumption that in the end it will always be possible to understand nature, even in every new field of experience, but that we make no a priori assumptions about the meaning of the word "understand"."

              Heisenberg
              .....................

              " It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and it is the glory of a king to search out a matter. " ( Proverbs 25:2 )

              Comment


              • #22
                All I am saying is that it is important to know who used which materials. Most of us are quite happy to say that we are comfortable with modern translations using the Critical Text. It the KJVO's who attack anything other than the TR for ridiculous non-reasons.

                Ergo, Wycliff used the Latin Vulgate and the KJV translators used the TR with a few exceptions.
                It is fundamentally necessary and healthy for Christians to acknowledge that God foreknows nothing uncertainly, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks "free-will" flat…

                Martin Luther The Bondage of the Will

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Beloved Daughter View Post
                  All I am saying is that it is important to know who used which materials. Most of us are quite happy to say that we are comfortable with modern translations using the Critical Text. It the KJVO's who attack anything other than the TR for ridiculous non-reasons.

                  Ergo, Wycliff used the Latin Vulgate and the KJV translators used the TR with a few exceptions.
                  Okay, I remember reading very similar material too.

                  Since the reference provided on the "Bible Study Tools" was unclear, I later found that the study tool was a quote from the Wycliffe Bible commentary.

                  Going back to my KJV mistranslation list...
                  "The exact sciences also start from the assumption that in the end it will always be possible to understand nature, even in every new field of experience, but that we make no a priori assumptions about the meaning of the word "understand"."

                  Heisenberg
                  .....................

                  " It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and it is the glory of a king to search out a matter. " ( Proverbs 25:2 )

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by inertia View Post
                    ...translation mistakes in the King James Bible...
                    The list to date:

                    1. ) Genesis 1:1 - " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. " ( KJV )

                    In Hebrew the phrase translated into English meaning, "the heavens" is הַשָּׁמַיִם.

                    If one was to write "the heaven" in Hebrew it would be הַשָּׁמַ.

                    The suffix יִם changes the noun to masculine plural. ( The King James translators missed this. )



                    2.) Exodus 20:13 (KJV) is: " Thou shalt not kill. " Comparing: (YLT) " 'Thou dost not murder. " (NET) " You shall not murder. "

                    רָצַח râtsach, raw-tsakh'; a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:—put to death, kill, (man-) slay(-er), murder(-er).



                    3.) Acts 12:4 (KJV) is: " And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people. " Comparing: (YLT) " whom also having seized, he did put in prison, having delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to guard him, intending after the passover to bring him forth to the people. " (NET) " When he had seized him, he put him in prison, handing him over to four squads of soldiers to guard him. Herod planned to bring him out for public trial after the Passover. "

                    πάσχα páscha, pas'-khah; of Chaldee origin (compare H6453); the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it):—Easter, Passover.


                    4.) Judges 20:26 (KJV) is:

                    " Then all the children of Israel, and all the people, went up, and came unto the house of God, and wept, and sat there before the LORD, and fasted that day until even, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. " ( underline mine )

                    The "house of God" is actually " Bethel "

                    Corrected translation:

                    " And all the sons of Israel go up, even all the people, and come in to Beth-El, and weep, and sit there before Jehovah, and fast on that day till the evening, and cause to ascend burnt-offerings and peace-offerings before Jehovah.. " (YLT)


                    5.) Judges 15:19 (KJV) is:

                    " But God clave an hollow place that was in the jaw, and there came water thereout; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again, and he revived: wherefore he called the name thereof Enhakkore, which is in Lehi unto this day. " ( underline mine )

                    "hollow place that was in the jaw" should be " hollow place in Lehi "

                    6.) Nahum 3:8 (KJV) is:

                    " Art thou better than populous No, that was situate among the rivers, that had the waters round about it, whose rampart was the sea, and her wall was from the sea? " ( underline mine )

                    Corrected translation:

                    " Are you better than No Amon
                    That was situated by the River,
                    That had the waters around her,
                    Whose rampart was the sea,
                    Whose wall was the sea? " (NKJV)

                    7. ) Judges 5:2 (KJV) is:

                    " Praise ye the LORD for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves.. " ( underline mine )

                    The word "avenging" should be "leaders".

                    Corrected translation:

                    " When leaders lead in Israel,
                    When the people willingly offer themselves,
                    Bless the LORD! " (NKJV)

                    8.) ...

                    ...........

                    References: Posters on CARM and http://www.bible-researcher.com/kjvdefects.html
                    Last edited by inertia; 02-11-19, 12:25 AM.
                    "The exact sciences also start from the assumption that in the end it will always be possible to understand nature, even in every new field of experience, but that we make no a priori assumptions about the meaning of the word "understand"."

                    Heisenberg
                    .....................

                    " It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and it is the glory of a king to search out a matter. " ( Proverbs 25:2 )

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by inertia View Post

                      The list to date:

                      1. ) Genesis 1:1 - " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. " ( KJV )

                      In Hebrew the phrase translated into English meaning, "the heavens" is הַשָּׁמַיִם.

                      If one was to write "the heaven" in Hebrew it would be הַשָּׁמַ.

                      The suffix יִם changes the noun to masculine plural. ( The King James translators missed this. )



                      2.) Exodus 20:13 (KJV) is: " Thou shalt not kill. " Comparing: (YLT) " 'Thou dost not murder. " (NET) " You shall not murder. "

                      רָצַח râtsach, raw-tsakh'; a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:—put to death, kill, (man-) slay(-er), murder(-er).



                      3.) Acts 12:4 (KJV) is: " And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people. " Comparing: (YLT) " whom also having seized, he did put in prison, having delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to guard him, intending after the passover to bring him forth to the people. " (NET) " When he had seized him, he put him in prison, handing him over to four squads of soldiers to guard him. Herod planned to bring him out for public trial after the Passover. "

                      πάσχα páscha, pas'-khah; of Chaldee origin (compare H6453); the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it):—Easter, Passover.


                      4.) Judges 20:26 (KJV) is:

                      " Then all the children of Israel, and all the people, went up, and came unto the house of God, and wept, and sat there before the LORD, and fasted that day until even, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. " ( underline mine )

                      The "house of God" is actually " Bethel "

                      Corrected translation:

                      " And all the sons of Israel go up, even all the people, and come in to Beth-El, and weep, and sit there before Jehovah, and fast on that day till the evening, and cause to ascend burnt-offerings and peace-offerings before Jehovah.. " (YLT)


                      5.) Judges 15:19 (KJV) is:

                      " But God clave an hollow place that was in the jaw, and there came water thereout; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again, and he revived: wherefore he called the name thereof Enhakkore, which is in Lehi unto this day. " ( underline mine )

                      "hollow place that was in the jaw" should be " hollow place in Lehi "

                      6.) Nahum 3:8 (KJV) is:

                      " Art thou better than populous No, that was situate among the rivers, that had the waters round about it, whose rampart was the sea, and her wall was from the sea? " ( underline mine )

                      Corrected translation:

                      " Are you better than No Amon
                      That was situated by the River,
                      That had the waters around her,
                      Whose rampart was the sea,
                      Whose wall was the sea? " (NKJV)

                      7. ) Judges 5:2 (KJV) is:

                      " Praise ye the LORD for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves.. " ( underline mine )

                      The word "avenging" should be "leaders".

                      Corrected translation:

                      " When leaders lead in Israel,
                      When the people willingly offer themselves,
                      Bless the LORD! " (NKJV)

                      8.) ...

                      ...........

                      References: Posters on CARM and http://www.bible-researcher.com/kjvdefects.html
                      Another addition:

                      8.) Job 39: 9-12 (KJV) is:

                      " Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him? " ( underline mine )

                      Corrected translation: (NKJV)

                      " “Will the wild ox be willing to serve you?
                      Will he bed by your manger?

                      Can you bind the wild ox in the furrow with ropes?
                      Or will he plow the valleys behind you?

                      Will you trust him because his strength is great?
                      Or will you leave your labor to him?

                      Will you trust him to bring home your grain,
                      And gather it to your threshing floor?"

                      For additional information see: Wikipedia
                      "The exact sciences also start from the assumption that in the end it will always be possible to understand nature, even in every new field of experience, but that we make no a priori assumptions about the meaning of the word "understand"."

                      Heisenberg
                      .....................

                      " It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and it is the glory of a king to search out a matter. " ( Proverbs 25:2 )

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by inertia View Post

                        The KJV translators followed the Wycliffe translation (1390 ) in specific passages and when they inserted a word to make the English better, it was italicized. Their effort was monumental. Still, an understanding of the "waw + noun -- perfect verb" construction and its use in Hebrew was not fully understood until ~ 60 years ago. ( page 40, Reading Genesis One, comparing Biblical Hebrew with English translation, and Zioiny Zevit, The Anterior Construction In Classical Hebrew, page 7)
                        The real question is whether or not God gives to His people today a Word which has not changed since the first letters were penned thousands of years ago. I believe He has. I believe God's Word has never changed and He does not give His people trash instead of treasure when it comes to the Written Word.
                        I am not a NPB-Onlyist (No Perfect Bible Onlyist), nor a NA/UBS-Onlyist. Marke

                        If this book be not infallible, where shall we find infallibility? We have given up the Pope, for he has blundered often and terribly; but we shall not set up instead of him a horde of little popelings fresh from college. C. H. Spurgeon

                        For that Revised Version I have but little care as a general rule, holding it to be by no means an improvement upon our common Authorized Version. C.H. Spurgeon

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by marke View Post

                          The real question is whether or not God gives to His people today a Word which has not changed since the first letters were penned thousands of years ago. I believe He has. I believe God's Word has never changed and He does not give His people trash instead of treasure when it comes to the Written Word.
                          Do different translations matter?
                          "The exact sciences also start from the assumption that in the end it will always be possible to understand nature, even in every new field of experience, but that we make no a priori assumptions about the meaning of the word "understand"."

                          Heisenberg
                          .....................

                          " It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and it is the glory of a king to search out a matter. " ( Proverbs 25:2 )

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by inertia View Post

                            Do different translations matter?
                            Yes, they do.

                            Try comparing The Message (or the Good News, or the NEB, or NWT, or the Living Bible, or Jerusalem Bible, or several others) with a sound, Evangelical translation. Check important passages (e.g. Messianic prophecies in the OT, or passages about the blood of Christ, etc).
                            John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by inertia View Post

                              Do different translations matter?
                              Quite possibly, even probably, depending on the specifics.
                              I am not a NPB-Onlyist (No Perfect Bible Onlyist), nor a NA/UBS-Onlyist. Marke

                              If this book be not infallible, where shall we find infallibility? We have given up the Pope, for he has blundered often and terribly; but we shall not set up instead of him a horde of little popelings fresh from college. C. H. Spurgeon

                              For that Revised Version I have but little care as a general rule, holding it to be by no means an improvement upon our common Authorized Version. C.H. Spurgeon

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by inertia View Post
                                ...translation mistakes in the King James Bible....
                                The list to date:

                                .....


                                1. ) Genesis 1:1 - " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. " ( KJV )

                                In Hebrew the phrase translated into English meaning, "the heavens" is הַשָּׁמַיִם.

                                If one was to write "the heaven" in Hebrew it would be הַשָּׁמַ.

                                The suffix יִם changes the noun to masculine plural. ( The King James translators missed this. )



                                2.) Exodus 20:13 (KJV) is: " Thou shalt not kill. " Comparing: (YLT) " 'Thou dost not murder. " (NET) " You shall not murder. "

                                רָצַח râtsach, raw-tsakh'; a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:—put to death, kill, (man-) slay(-er), murder(-er).



                                3.) Acts 12:4 (KJV) is: " And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people. " Comparing: (YLT) " whom also having seized, he did put in prison, having delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to guard him, intending after the passover to bring him forth to the people. " (NET) " When he had seized him, he put him in prison, handing him over to four squads of soldiers to guard him. Herod planned to bring him out for public trial after the Passover. "

                                πάσχα páscha, pas'-khah; of Chaldee origin (compare H6453); the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it):—Easter, Passover.


                                4.) Judges 20:26 (KJV) is:

                                " Then all the children of Israel, and all the people, went up, and came unto the house of God, and wept, and sat there before the LORD, and fasted that day until even, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. " ( underline mine )

                                The "house of God" is actually " Bethel "

                                Corrected translation:

                                " And all the sons of Israel go up, even all the people, and come in to Beth-El, and weep, and sit there before Jehovah, and fast on that day till the evening, and cause to ascend burnt-offerings and peace-offerings before Jehovah.. " (YLT)


                                5.) Judges 15:19 (KJV) is:

                                " But God clave an hollow place that was in the jaw, and there came water thereout; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again, and he revived: wherefore he called the name thereof Enhakkore, which is in Lehi unto this day. " ( underline mine )

                                "hollow place that was in the jaw" should be " hollow place in Lehi "

                                6.) Nahum 3:8 (KJV) is:

                                " Art thou better than populous No, that was situate among the rivers, that had the waters round about it, whose rampart was the sea, and her wall was from the sea? " ( underline mine )

                                Corrected translation:

                                " Are you better than No Amon
                                That was situated by the River,
                                That had the waters around her,
                                Whose rampart was the sea,
                                Whose wall was the sea? " (NKJV)

                                7. ) Judges 5:2 (KJV) is:

                                " Praise ye the LORD for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves.. " ( underline mine )

                                The word "avenging" should be "leaders".

                                Corrected translation:

                                " When leaders lead in Israel,
                                When the people willingly offer themselves,
                                Bless the LORD! " (NKJV)

                                8.) Job 39: 9-12 (KJV) is:

                                " Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him? " ( underline mine )

                                Corrected translation: (NKJV)

                                " “Will the wild ox be willing to serve you?
                                Will he bed by your manger?

                                Can you bind the wild ox in the furrow with ropes?
                                Or will he plow the valleys behind you?

                                Will you trust him because his strength is great?
                                Or will you leave your labor to him?

                                Will you trust him to bring home your grain,
                                And gather it to your threshing floor?"

                                For additional information see: Wikipedia

                                9.)...
                                "The exact sciences also start from the assumption that in the end it will always be possible to understand nature, even in every new field of experience, but that we make no a priori assumptions about the meaning of the word "understand"."

                                Heisenberg
                                .....................

                                " It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and it is the glory of a king to search out a matter. " ( Proverbs 25:2 )

                                Comment

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