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  • If you feel that something is against...

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~God's Word or perverse, Should one be forced to do or not do it to please men or man made laws? For instance, same sex marriages, should a minister of God be forced by man made laws to please the ungodly world (and not God), to perform them or to participate or condone them in any way? And shouldn't the refusal to do so, be considered ones right to choose right from wrong, and not a hate crime, but one of righteousness because God calls it perversion/sin and He created Adam and Eve to be one flesh, not two of the same sex which is a perversion of nature?
    The purpose of my posts are not to cause bicker or division, but to show truth from the scripture for edifying of the soul. It does not matter what we think, it is what God's Word says that matters.

  • #2
    Originally posted by afaithfulone4u View Post
    Should one be forced to do or not do it to please men or man made laws?
    We're to be "in submission" to the secular authorities, but that doesn't mean we have to be "obedient" to their laws. Submission includes accepting the PENALTY for refusing to obey the secular law.

    The illustration is how the Disciples responded to the law forbidding them to preach Jesus.

    Submitting to an unjust law, by accepting it's punishment may prove costly, but it's still the right thing to do.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

      We're to be "in submission" to the secular authorities, but that doesn't mean we have to be "obedient" to their laws. Submission includes accepting the PENALTY for refusing to obey the secular law.

      The illustration is how the Disciples responded to the law forbidding them to preach Jesus.

      Submitting to an unjust law, by accepting it's punishment may prove costly, but it's still the right thing to do.
      Yes, we are to submit to all God ordained authorities, but we are not to submit to any law that opposes Christ, for that is what anti-Christ spirits tempt us to do. We must not deny Christ to avoid persecution. Daniel went straight out and prayed to his God immediately as he always did. For He knew it is wiser to obey his God who has his life in His hands, then to bow to the ungodly hands of man, who can only do to you what the Lord permits. But, my op is really speaking of the hypocrisy of the secular world, of how they want rights to choose what they accept and don't accept as ok/normal calling it, good, but anyone who does not accept their wicked ways and participates in them, is called evil. Even, when evil doers are up to no good caught in vandalism or breaking and entering, and the authorities who are to protect the innocent, have to use a force and the evil doer who brought this upon them selves gets hurt, the wicked side with the evil doer calling the authorities who was trying to protect the innocent, the evil one. But, I wonder how many side with the same evil doer when the same evil doer is in their house causing them trouble, harm or loss, he causes the authorities by his disobedience and rebellion to have to harm him... do they still side with the wicked?
      Dan 6:7-11

      7 All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellers, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions.

      8 Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

      9 Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree.

      10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

      11 Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God.
      KJV
      Last edited by afaithfulone4u; 12-17-18, 12:28 PM.
      The purpose of my posts are not to cause bicker or division, but to show truth from the scripture for edifying of the soul. It does not matter what we think, it is what God's Word says that matters.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by afaithfulone4u View Post
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~God's Word or perverse, Should one be forced to do or not do it to please men or man made laws? For instance, same sex marriages, should a minister of God be forced by man made laws to please the ungodly world (and not God), to perform them or to participate or condone them in any way? And shouldn't the refusal to do so, be considered ones right to choose right from wrong, and not a hate crime, but one of righteousness because God calls it perversion/sin and He created Adam and Eve to be one flesh, not two of the same sex which is a perversion of nature?
        There are plenty ways to get married without needing to involve anyone opposed to gay marriage. I imagine some will try and force an anti-gay minister to perform a same sex marriage, but there is no real need as folks generally want kind, loving people in their wedding ceremony.

        I see this becoming problematic for gay couples wanting to get married by their pastor or in their church building. Many churches have gotten over this ancient bias, but, for those homosexuals still attending churches ran by phobia, I hope their world evolves to embrace them.
        I want to hear it from your lips;
        What's it worth shining for?

        Rishloo - Scissorlips

        Comment


        • #5
          should a minister of God be forced by man made laws to please the ungodly world ?

          No.

          Yet I am glad for secular restrictions on the Muslim command that we must convert or die.
          I champion GOD’s holiness:
          - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
          - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

          I champion Our Free will:
          - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by afaithfulone4u View Post
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~God's Word or perverse, Should one be forced to do or not do it to please men or man made laws? For instance, same sex marriages, should a minister of God be forced by man made laws to please the ungodly world (and not God), to perform them or to participate or condone them in any way? And shouldn't the refusal to do so, be considered ones right to choose right from wrong, and not a hate crime, but one of righteousness because God calls it perversion/sin and He created Adam and Eve to be one flesh, not two of the same sex which is a perversion of nature?
            You are missing the point that ALL religions are mainly about pleasing the masses to get more people into the churches, which in turn fills the church coffers, that's ALL that matters. So if marrying same sex couples gets more people attending church, then all is fine. Any good priest could find a verse or two that could be twisted around to make it appear "ok" with the Christian "god".

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
              should a minister of God be forced by man made laws to please the ungodly world ?

              No.

              Yet I am glad for secular restrictions on the Muslim command that we must convert or die.
              Just as EVERYONE is glad for these "secular restrictions" to protect us from the Christians:

              Exodus 22:20
              "Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed.

              Deuteronomy 13:6-10
              6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known,
              7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other),
              8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them.
              9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people.
              10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

              Deuteronomy 13:12-16

              12If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

              13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

              14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

              15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

              16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

              Deuteronomy 17:2-7

              2"(A)If there is found in your midst, in any of your towns, which the LORD your God is giving you, a man or a woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, by transgressing His covenant,

              3and has gone and (B)served other gods and worshiped them, (C)or the sun or the moon or any of the heavenly host, (D)which I have not commanded,

              4and if it is told you and you have heard of it, then you shall inquire thoroughly. Behold, if it is true and the thing certain that this detestable thing has been done in Israel,

              5then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is, the man or the woman, and (E)you shall stone them to death.

              Deuteronomy 17:12-13
              12 The person who acts arrogantly, refusing to listen either to the priest who stands there serving the LORD your God or to the judge, must die. You must purge the evil from Israel. 13 Then all the people will hear [about it], be afraid, and no longer behave arrogantly.

              Deuteronomy 18:20-22
              20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

              Comment


              • #8
                It is not to protect anyone from the people who truly follow Jesus - the sheep are harmless as doves.... see? The powers that shed blood are building up God's Wrath and God's Vengeance against themselves.

                And those who oppose God, we Ekklesia do not judge nor kill in this life - someone may be condemned because of their unbelief already in this life, but the final judgment and destruction
                comes later after death.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by afaithfulone4u View Post
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~God's Word or perverse, Should one be forced to do or not do it to please men or man made laws? For instance, same sex marriages, should a minister of God be forced by man made laws to please the ungodly world (and not God), to perform them or to participate or condone them in any way? And shouldn't the refusal to do so, be considered ones right to choose right from wrong, and not a hate crime, but one of righteousness because God calls it perversion/sin and He created Adam and Eve to be one flesh, not two of the same sex which is a perversion of nature?
                  Depends on where one lives and when.

                  This is a "first world" problem. The only reason this discussion exists and can exist is because we live in a pluralistic society that asserts a right of free speech. If we were living in ancient Babylon we'd be hunted down and killed for simply asking the question. We wouldn't have an option. Force in that environment looks radically different than the mention of "forced" in current circumstance.

                  This is the way God has seen fit to plan it. Scripture tells us in no uncertain terms that God has appointed the day and place in which each of us live (Acts 17:26). We are informed that the powers and authorities that exist occur at His design as His agents and we are to submit ourselves to them (Rom. 13:1). The sad reality is that there has never been a wholly righteous human rule. It has always been incumbent upon us to practice Godly living amidst depraved circumstances. Today's version happens to be our dealing with same-sex marriage and the undue influence a single-digit segment of the population is having on the whole in an otherwise democratic society.

                  Homosexuals and same-sex sex has been occurring at least as far back as Ham. God has always known this. Understand that when God required there to be two witnesses for any capital crime He was providing an implicit tolerance of sin: you can punish it unless and until it occurs among witnesses....................... despite the fact that it occurring often outside the observance of witnesses. We may not understand why God designed His jurisprudence that way but that is, nonetheless, the way He designed it. In various societies there were varying degrees of public approval/disapproval. Being a Christian convert was always going to look different in Jerusalem than it did in Ephesus or Corinth (where pagan rituals included sexual behavior). You could, if you like, move to Saudi Arabia where you don't have to worry about the influence of homosexuals. You might have to worry about your being a Christian, but no so much about same-sex marriage. So each place and time has its own Babylon.



                  And for the record: we humans don't have any "rights," but those commuted to us through Christ. We are each and all sinners and deserving of destruction. It is only by grace that any of us draw breath long enough to type a post.
                  All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                  “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by afaithfulone4u View Post
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~God's Word or perverse, Should one be forced to do or not do it to please men or man made laws? For instance, same sex marriages, should a minister of God be forced by man made laws to please the ungodly world (and not God), to perform them or to participate or condone them in any way? And shouldn't the refusal to do so, be considered ones right to choose right from wrong, and not a hate crime, but one of righteousness because God calls it perversion/sin and He created Adam and Eve to be one flesh, not two of the same sex which is a perversion of nature?
                    The way for Bible-believing ministers to conduct this matter would be to have a policy that they only conduct marriages if both of the persons are members of the congregation. For instance, if one of the members wants to marry a person not a member of the congregation, the minister should decline unless/until the person joins the congregation. This way, if a couple asking to be married happens to be male/male, or female/female, and the minister did not know that one of his congregation was gay, then he must do two things: one decline based on non-membership, not based on same sex. If the person who was not a member wants to then join, the minister must then decline their membership based on their admission they are wanting to be practicing homosexuals. He should then council the member who is wanting to be an openly practicing homosexual, and if after a specific time period, withdraw membership as a member no longer in good standing since they are openly professing to live in a sexual sin, ie, sex outside marriage. Same goes for heterosexuals who are living in open sexual sin, they should be counseled and if not reconciled, put out of the church.

                    Non-members need to go elsewhere, such as the justice of the peace. Or to a corrupt church that allows this sinful lifestyle.

                    Cynthia...2 Witnesses knew the events of Damascus Road. Ananias & Judas, Acts 9. Reject Paul? U must reject Luke, Peter 2Pet3:15-18 and Mark, Peter's student. James/John are complicit as well as Matthew.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bluemayskye View Post

                      There are plenty ways to get married without needing to involve anyone opposed to gay marriage. I imagine some will try and force an anti-gay minister to perform a same sex marriage, but there is no real need as folks generally want kind, loving people in their wedding ceremony.

                      I see this becoming problematic for gay couples wanting to get married by their pastor or in their church building. Many churches have gotten over this ancient bias, but, for those homosexuals still attending churches ran by phobia, I hope their world evolves to embrace them.
                      Churches that follow the Holy Bible are NOT 'churches ran by phobia'. I resent you saying so.

                      You would think that gay couples would be able to find a bakery to bake their wedding cakes without bringing suit against a Christian bakery who decline.

                      I don't believe in gay marriage, but I would have baked the cake anyway. We don't know the sexual orientation of everyone who comes in to buy a cake or pie or cookies out of the bakery display case. What are they going to do, ask every customer before they sell them something? Consent to bake a cake is not consent to the lifestyle, and they brought a lot of trouble on themselves for a misguided notion. We are to judge those "in the church" not those outside the church.
                      Cynthia...2 Witnesses knew the events of Damascus Road. Ananias & Judas, Acts 9. Reject Paul? U must reject Luke, Peter 2Pet3:15-18 and Mark, Peter's student. James/John are complicit as well as Matthew.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ancient Soul View Post

                        You are missing the point that ALL religions are mainly about pleasing the masses to get more people into the churches, which in turn fills the church coffers, that's ALL that matters. So if marrying same sex couples gets more people attending church, then all is fine. Any good priest could find a verse or two that could be twisted around to make it appear "ok" with the Christian "god".
                        Yes, Christianity is all about pleasing the masses:

                        2 Thess 1:3-4
                        We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing. Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.

                        Rom 8:35-36
                        35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

                        Quite a list of perks for being a Christian. "Wow, sign me up!"

                        Fortunately, in America religious freedom is (at least for the present) protected by the Constitution.
                        Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

                        Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by cynthia View Post

                          Churches that follow the Holy Bible are NOT 'churches ran by phobia'. I resent you saying so.
                          I did not say that. I believe churches who follow the truth will embrace all love.

                          You would think that gay couples would be able to find a bakery to bake their wedding cakes without bringing suit against a Christian bakery who decline.
                          What wedding cake bakeries are you not allowed to order at?

                          I don't believe in gay marriage, but I would have baked the cake anyway. We don't know the sexual orientation of everyone who comes in to buy a cake or pie or cookies out of the bakery display case. What are they going to do, ask every customer before they sell them something? Consent to bake a cake is not consent to the lifestyle, and they brought a lot of trouble on themselves for a misguided notion. We are to judge those "in the church" not those outside the church.
                          As it should be.
                          I want to hear it from your lips;
                          What's it worth shining for?

                          Rishloo - Scissorlips

                          Comment

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