Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Protestant Salvation

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Protestant Salvation

    Originally posted by Craig View Post

    Of course. Now--is Protestant salvation in its fullest sense dependent upon what [individuals] do, or do we automatically have it?
    You present you question as an "either/or", but they are two independent questions.
    So I will answer them separately.

    Of course. Now--is Protestant salvation in its fullest sense dependent upon what [individuals] do,
    Well, by "Protestant salvation" you are really asking about BIBLICAL salvation.
    So to answer, let's go to the BIBLE.

    The Bible teaches that salvation is "not by works":

    Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    or do we automatically have [Protestant salvation]?
    No, everyone does not "automatically have" salvation.

    As we see above, salvation is a GIFT of God (eg. Eph. 2:8)
    And with any gift, God gets to choose whom He gives this gift to.

    So just because salvation is a "free gift", doesn't mean that "everyone" gets it.

    But for those whom God elects, they are given the faith that saves at some point in their lives (what we generally call "conversion").
    "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
    but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
    -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

  • #2
    Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
    ...
    But for those whom God elects, they are given the faith that saves at some point in their lives (what we generally call "conversion").
    Whom are those that God elects?
    1Peter 1:18,19 Redeemed ... with the precious blood of Christ

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by PeanutGallery
      Whom are those that God elects?
      If we had greater explanation in answer to that question Luther, Erasmus, Calvin, and Arminius wouldn't have had much to debate. Logic will get us a good way there, though.


      It is God who does the electing.
      It is only the elect who are predestined to receive and given a whole bunch of stuff that scripture says they get.
      [indent]The elect are those gathered from the four winds by God's angels (Mt. 24:31, Mk. 13:27).
      The elect are those to/for whom God brings justice (Lk. 18:7).
      The elect are those against whom no charge can or will be brought (Rom. 8:33).
      The elect are those chosen by God before the foundation of the world according to His foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2).[/quote]

      As a consequence of having been elected by God before the foundation of the world the elect are those chosen to be holy and blameless, those who also have been predestined for adoption as sons through Christ (Eph. 1:4-5), those predestined to be conformed to be like His son, Jesus (Rom. 8:29), according to the purpose of God who works all these things according to the counsel of His will (His will, not ours).


      So if we work backwards from the attributes consequent to election we understand that the elect are those God has saved by His grace through faith and not anything of themselves (Eph. 2:8), or how the person wills or runs (Rom. 9:16).
      All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

      “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

      Comment


      • #4
        erasing, because the quotes got messed up...can't tell who is being quoted where.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
          Craig View Post

          Of course. Now--is Protestant salvation in its fullest sense dependent upon what [individuals] do, or do we automatically have it?
          Men have always been saved the same way—by grace through faith.

          James said, “But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” Jas 2:18.

          Paul spoke about the root of faith (Eph 2:8). James spoke about the fruit of faith (Jas 2:17-18)." ~ Adrian Rogers
          "Being a square keeps you from going around in circles." ~ J. Vernon McGee
          Ro 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9, 10:13

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by PeanutGallery View Post
            Whom are those that God elects?
            If you'd like to be elect, then repent (Ac 8:22). Now, you're elect.
            "Being a square keeps you from going around in circles." ~ J. Vernon McGee
            Ro 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9, 10:13

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
              It is God who does the electing.
              God initiates. Men respond.

              "Being a square keeps you from going around in circles." ~ J. Vernon McGee
              Ro 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9, 10:13

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by PeanutGallery View Post
                Whom are those that God elects?
                You I hope.

                Comment


                • #9
                  God's desire:
                  1 Tim 2:1-7
                  I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone — for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men — the testimony given in its proper time.

                  2 Peter 3:9
                  The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

                  Man's response:
                  Rom 10:5-13
                  Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile — the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
                  Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

                  Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by serpentdove
                    God initiates. Men respond.
                    That is simplistic and as stated incorrect if volitional soteriology is intended.
                    All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                    “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                      [God initiates. Men respond.] That is simplistic...
                      Simple not simplistic (Jn 3:16).

                      "Being a square keeps you from going around in circles." ~ J. Vernon McGee
                      Ro 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9, 10:13

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by serpentdove
                        Simple not simplistic (Jn 3:16).
                        No, simplistic. John 3:16. It doesn't say a thing about humans "responding." It says those who believe, not those who respond. Please stop reading things into scripture it doesn't actually state.
                        All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                        “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                          John 3:16. It doesn't say a thing about humans "responding."
                          Keep reading (Pr 8:17).
                          "Being a square keeps you from going around in circles." ~ J. Vernon McGee
                          Ro 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9, 10:13

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by serpentdove
                            Keep reading (Pr 8:17).
                            I see. You're going to hop around form verse to verse to verse to verse to verse ad nauseam and I'm going to tell you the same thing: That verse does not say. "God initiates, Men respond."


                            Pr. 8:17 says "I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me," and Rom. 8:31 says, "there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God."



                            So would you like to give a third try or are you willing to concede you don't have a verse in the Bible that actually says, "God initiate, Men respond."

                            Are you arguing a volitional soteriology, serpentdove? Because the exact same phrase "God initiates and men respond" could be used to summarize Calvinism. Is that your intent? Clarify your position. Don't be simplistic.
                            All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                            “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                              That verse does not say. "God initiates, Men respond."
                              Keep reading (Ac 17:27).
                              "Being a square keeps you from going around in circles." ~ J. Vernon McGee
                              Ro 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9, 10:13

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X