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Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty, the First and the Last - Revelation 1

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  • #46
    Originally posted by john wilcox View Post
    There is but ONE Lord of heaven and earth, NOT two.
    Is the Father the SAME person as the Son? No! Then there ARE two Lord's of heaven and earth:

    1) God the Father

    2) Jesus from Nazareth, a man


    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

      Is the Father the SAME person as the Son? No! Then there ARE two Lord's of heaven and earth:

      1) God the Father

      2) Jesus from Nazareth, a man

      When person stands for the substance yes.When person stands for the subsistence.Paternal is not filial and filial is not paternal.Hence the hypostasis of the Father is not the hypostasis of the Son,as the Father is denominated by fatherhood and the Son is denominated by sonship. And the identity of both is at once,the First and the Last.

      God the Father

      The consubstantial Logos/Son made flesh/Jesus of Nazareth a man.One in being three in persons.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

        Is the Father the SAME person as the Son? No! Then there ARE two Lord's of heaven and earth:

        1) God the Father

        2) Jesus from Nazareth, a man

        Since Jesus is called "Lord of Lord" then he is the Lord of the other Lord in heaven you refer to. Scripture doesn't say "Jesus is Lord of Lords, except for _______".

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

          Which is why we should not understand the angels as worshiping the Son as God in Heb. 1:6. Indeed, the whole idea that God the Father would directly command His angels to worship the Son in Heb. 1:6 is nonsensical. Why would the angels need to be commanded to worship God? Do the angels not know their creator?

          Unfortunately biased translators have rendered the Greek proskynéô (which Strong's Greek defines as: I go down on my knees to, do obeisance to, worship) in Heb. 1:6 as "worship," when the context calls for "obeisance."

          The reason "obeisance," not "worship," should be used in Heb. 1:6, is because the angels are being commanded by God to acknowledge the Son as their superior as a result of him being exalted /elevated ABOVE them by virtue of his resurrection-exaltation to God's right hand (a position/status far above them), as both the immediate and remote contexts make plainly evident.

          3c "
          After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So He became higher in rank than the angels" (Heb. 1:3c-4a, HCSB)

          20 "He demonstrated this power in the Messiah by raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavens21 far above every ruler and authority, power and dominion, and every title given, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put everything under His feet" (Eph. 1:20-22a, HCSB)

          "
          Now Christ has gone to heaven where he holds the honored position—the one next to God the Father on the throne. Angels, rulers, and powers have been placed under his authority" (1 Pet. 3:22, GW)




          Please stop with the asininity. Again, it's nonsensical to argue, such as you are doing, that the angels worshiped the Son at his birth when that was the time he was MADE LOWER [inferior] to them.

          Indeed, there is no evidence whatsoever in the gospels of the angels worshiping Jesus at his birth; but we do read of them announcing his birth. Apparently you can't seem to distinguish the difference.

          Once again, not only is it nonsensical to argue the angels worshiped the Son at his birth because that was at the point he was made lower [inferior] to them, the context rules this out because Heb. 1:6 is PART of the writer to Hebrews argument as to HOW the Son BECAME so much superior to the angels. Or is it YOUR nonsensical argument that the Son BECAME Superior to the angels at his birth?

          IOW, we should understand the timing of the angels offering obeisance to the Son AFTER he was EXALTED/ELEVATED above them, not before (i.e., at this birth).






          The angels were commanded to worship The Son when God brought Him INTO the world, i.e. at His BIRTH.
          And angels worship God ONLY.AT His birth the angels all sang and said glory to God in the HIGHEST.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

            Then you cannot TRUTHFULLY say he was born as a MAN, for a MAN only has one nature: human.
            Strawman. I said Jesus Christ has TWO natures, NOT that a MAN has two natures.
            Last edited by john wilcox; 11-13-17, 04:15 PM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

              Is the Father the SAME person as the Son? No! Then there ARE two Lord's of heaven and earth:

              1) God the Father

              2) Jesus from Nazareth, a man

              The Father is the SAME BEING as The Son, hence ONLY ONE Lord of heaven and earth.
              BTW NO MAN is or EVER can be The Lord of heaven and earth. ONLY God is.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

                Then you cannot TRUTHFULLY say he was born as a MAN, for a MAN only has one nature: human.
                On the contrary Jesus was a real man of flesh and blood with a rational human soul ,inseparably and unitedly One with the Logos The Word was God,and the Word was made flesh and we beheld His glory. God was in Christ clearly by way of subsistence..Hence the man Christ subsistence is the hypostasis of God.To say the man Christ subsist in two natures,Is the same as, the Word was made flesh,God manifested in the flesh,took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.,and that holy thing born of the shall be called the Son of God.the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his hypostasis. Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily

                Now what about the scriptures or the words of Christ that remotely suggest He is just a man?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by StephenC View Post

                  God did it. It says so right in the passage. Didn't you read it.

                  Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
                  Taking the Holy writ in whole,nothing would lead me to conclude," made this Jesus" to imply corporal conditions.How exactly do you expect your humanistic connotations could adequately express verities of the Divine.

                  God did do it,and as the Father acts so also does His consubstantial Word/Son.

                  5.Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Aeg4371 View Post

                    When person stands for the substance yes.When person stands for the subsistence.Paternal is not filial and filial is not paternal.Hence the hypostasis of the Father is not the hypostasis of the Son,as the Father is denominated by fatherhood and the Son is denominated by sonship. Hence the identity of both is at once,the First and the Last.

                    God the Father

                    The consubstantial Logos/Son made flesh/Jesus of Nazareth a man.One in being yet two persons.
                    Last edited by Aeg4371; 11-13-17, 06:37 PM. Reason: correction

                    Comment


                    • #55


                      Originally posted by Neal View Post
                      Stephen,



                      When you say things like Jesus has a God, you're talking right past me because I agree that he did. How can he be God and yet have a God? Simply because when God was incarnate he was a REAL man and as a man he thought and perceived as a real man and therefore had a God. So, you can give me a hundred scriptures that show that Jesus is a man, prayed and had a God and I will say Amen. In other words you can't rationally argue against Oneness teaching and the deity of Christ by giving me scriptures that show he was a man and prayed, etc.




                      You have no point here.




                      Yet scriptures also call Jesus God. You can't harmonize this with your concept so you have to argue against all the scriptures that tell us he is the first and last. I noticed you never address how he can be "the first". Instead you give me scriptures that tell us he was a genuine man and I say Amen.







                      Very easily, keep reading down to verse 16... Revelation 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

                      nothead replied
                      11-10-17, 12:01 PM


                      Cannot be a real man and God too.

                      Cannot be a fake man and God too.

                      Cannot be any kind of man and God too.

                      Sorry for all the CANNOTS. But unless you know Jewish View you cannot have a clue.
                      Your humanistic intelligibility contradicts the words of scriptures themselves when it says," God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.Great is the mystery of godliness.God was manifested in the flesh,justified in the spirit. I could go on,but you would find some ridiculous notion that contradicts basic biblical common sense.

                      Just because many tend to dumb down the scriptures in order to deny Christ divine self sovereignty.,Doesn't mean you should insult our intelligence with assertions contrary and completely inadequate to express verities of the divine.

                      The Jewish view God is One. It does not take denying Christ for the Jewish view of God is One.Second as the angelic doctor states We can know what God is by knowing what He is not.We know God by nature is not a creature and yet we know He came in the likeness of a creature.Being that God is not a man by nature,yet on account of the Logos made flesh ,and God in Christ,the Greeks say hypostatic union.

                      Denying scriptures because it doesn't fit your humanistic perception of what the Jews might think,is not a real argument.Therefore your natural reasoning that God cannot be a real man and God too has no bases in verities of the divine.
                      Last edited by Aeg4371; 11-13-17, 07:07 PM. Reason: correction

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Aeg4371 View Post

                        When person stands for the substance yes.When person stands for the subsistence.Paternal is not filial and filial is not paternal.Hence the hypostasis of the Father is not the hypostasis of the Son,as the Father is denominated by fatherhood and the Son is denominated by sonship. Hence the identity of both is at once,the First and the Last.

                        God the Father

                        The consubstantial Logos/Son made flesh/Jesus of Nazareth a man.One in being yet two persons.
                        Are you saying Jesus is two persons in the one being known as Jesus?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Neal View Post
                          Jesus is identified as the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God, the Almighty in Revelation 1:8.


                          Revelation 1:8 - I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”


                          Some would skeptically say that this verse isn't referring to Jesus.

                          But, the context of chapter 1 and the book of Revelation, makes it clear that this is Jesus Christ.

                          Why? First, notice that the verse calls him "Lord"

                          In Revelation 17:4 we see Jesus is called Lord of Lords

                          They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”


                          IF Revelation 1:8 is referring to someone other than Jesus, then Revelation 17:4 means that Jesus is the Lord of the Lord in Revelation 1:8, because Jesus is declared as Lord of Lords.

                          Yet, 1 Corinthians 8:6 says Jesus is the one Lord

                          "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."

                          Jesus is said to be the one Lord in 1 Corinthians 8:6 and the Lord of Lords in Revelation 17:4. John calls him the Lord Jesus in Revelation 22:21.

                          Therefore Jesus is the subject of Revelation 1:8.

                          Furthermore, Revelation 1:8, calls him the Alpha and Omega, yet in Revelation 1:17, Jesus calls himself the "first and the last"

                          In Revelation 22:12-13 "Jesus says again, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”


                          Furthermore, the Jahveh/LORD of the OT is called the first and the last in Isaiah 48:12-13

                          “Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called!
                          I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
                          My hand laid the foundation of the earth,
                          and my right hand spread out the heavens;
                          when I call to them,
                          they stand forth together."

                          There can only be one "the First" and "the Alpha". Jesus is clearly identified as the First and the Last.

                          It is simply not reasonable or rational or scriptural or logical to teach Jesus is only a man but the Bible calls him the First and the Last.


                          There is but one Lord.




                          Some say, but Jesus has a Father and the book of Revelation talks about Jesus and the Father. Yes, indeed, but this isn't contradicting the fact that we've already established that Jesus is the Lord God Almighty.

                          Jesus is the manifestation of God in the flesh. As to his deity He is the Lord God Almighty, but as to his flesh, he is a genuine man. In Christ, all things will be made new and mankind reconciled with God.

                          It’s a fact in scripture!!!

                          It was said “ And many will be deceived”.

                          That statement has now been made a very true quote!!!

                          I know people hate to hear that, is absolute!!!

                          harry



                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Weak relies from the Unitarian/Arian folks on this. Scripture is very clear as to the revelation of who Jesus Christ is, the First and Last, Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty. Logically, rationally, and scripturally there can only be one "first" and one "Lord of Lords".


                            HEBREWS 1:6 "“Let all God’s angels worship him.”

                            PROSKUNEO (WORSHIP) - This is the SAME Greek word used by Jesus in rebuking the devil and telling him "it is written, you shall proskuneo (worship) the LORD and him only"

                            From Luke 24:42 it is said that the disciple proskuneo (worshipped) Jesus. Being devout and monotheistic Jews who only worshipped God, this is not something that they did ignorantly. Never in scripture does Jesus rebuke anyone for bowing down and worshipping him, yet the disciples and angels always told people not to worship them. Trying to twist the meaning of proskuneo and other words is not only dishonest but it lacks seriousness and is a shame to our intelligence.

                            Talking points that show distinction between Jesus and God and that Jesus is a man only talk past me because I agree that there was a distinction and that Jesus was a man. However, scripture is clear that Jesus is both man and God.

                            Comment


                            • #59


                              Originally posted by Aeg4371 View Post
                              When person stands for the substance yes.When person stands for the subsistence.Paternal is not filial and filial is not paternal.Hence the hypostasis of the Father is not the hypostasis of the Son,as the Father is denominated by fatherhood and the Son is denominated by sonship. Hence the identity of both is at once,the First and the Last.

                              God the Father

                              The consubstantial Logos/Son made flesh/Jesus of Nazareth a man.One in being yet two persons.

                              IronMan replied
                              11-13-17, 08:28 PM
                              Are you saying Jesus is two persons in the one being known as Jesus?
                              The personality of fatherhood is not the personality of sonship. Two personalities supposes two persons.One of the Father another of the Son.No I am not saying Jesus is two persons in one being known has Jesus.The distinct realities are predicated to God as He told Moses on the mount,not to Jesus nor the Father.

                              This word person can stand for the substance of being and this word person can stand for the reality or personality of being.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Aeg4371 View Post



                                The personality of fatherhood is not the personality of sonship. Two personalities supposes two persons.One of the Father another of the Son.No I am not saying Jesus is two persons in one being known has Jesus.The distinct realities are predicated to God as He told Moses on the mount,not to Jesus nor the Father.

                                This word person can stand for the substance of being and this word person can stand for the reality or personality of being.
                                A toad is a reality, does that qualify as a person? You're going to have to be more specific. Also, didn't your English teacher (if you had one), teach you NOT to use the term in its own definition? Not good!

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