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Does Heb 1:10-12 teach the Son is superior to the angels because he is Creator?

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  • Does Heb 1:10-12 teach the Son is superior to the angels because he is Creator?

    10 "And, “In the beginning, Lord, you founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
    11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like clothing;
    12 like a cloak you will roll them up, and like clothing they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never end.” (Heb. 1:10-12, NRSV)

    Trins commonly argue that Heb. 1:10-12 shows the Son's superiority to the angels because He is the Creator (God).

    The problem with this argument is that it goes against the writer's flow of argument, since vv. 10-12 are all PART of his elaboration to support his assertion originally made in v. 4; namely, as to HOW the Son has become or has attained to a status/rank superior to that of the angels, not how the Son has always been superior to the angels.

    "Thus he became so far better than the angels as he has inherited a name superior to theirs" (Heb. 1:4, NET)


    "Hebrews 1:5-14 elaborates verse 4 in demonstrating that Christ's exaltation gives him a dignity and status far superior to the angels (cf. Eph. 1:20; 1 Pet. 3:22) with verse 13 actually citing, in a form of inclusio, the passage (viz., Ps. 110:1)."

    "In that verse 4 states the central THEME that the writer develops in Hebrews 1-2, it may be said to represent the focal point of the two chapter, so that what follows verse 4 is an explication of the Son's superiority over the angels."

    Murray J. Harris, Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus (Eugene OR: Wipf & Stock, 1992) p 208 & 214


    "The catena of OT quotations in 1:5-13 elaborates the assertion in v 4 that by virtue of his exaltation[/B] the Son acquired[/B] a status superior to the angels."

    William L. Lane, Word Biblical Commentary, 47a; Hebrews 1-8 (Dallas, TX: Word Books, 1991), p 32.


    In short, it is by virtue of Christ's exaltation (not his transcendent Deity as God) that he has become superior to the angels.

    Again, the writer is not arguing for the Son's superiority over the angels because he is God (Creator), but the Son's superiority over the angels because he has become or attained to a status superior to them AFTER being made lower than them (Heb. 2:9). It is the exalted Son, not the preexistent Son, who has been exalted or elevated above the angels.

    Furthermore, it should be pointed out that all of the 7 OT quotations (Ps. 2:7; 2 Sa 7:14; Ps. 45:6-7; Ps. 102:25-27; Ps. 110:1) offered up in vv. 5-14 as affirmation of his assertion made in 1:4, have to do with "the world to come," since this is the overarching theme that he has been speaking about up to this point.

    "
    For he did not put the world to come, about which we are speaking, under the control of angels" (Heb. 2:5, NET)

    I submit that just as ALL of the quotations from the OT in 2:12-13 specifically serve to underscore the Son's solidarity with the rest of humanity, so too, do the catena of OT quotations in 1:5-13 specifically serve to underscore how the Son has become superior to the angels, since his resurrection-exaltation.

    Ask yourself: is the Genesis Creation an event in which it can be said the Son was exalted or elevated above the angels AFTER he was made lower than them? Of course not. Then it makes no contextual sense to interpret or understand the writer in vv. 10-12 (or in v. 8, for that matter) to be arguing for the Son's superiority over the angels because of his Deity as the Creator, for that would contextually go against his "assertion" made in 1:4, as well as against his overarching theme in 2:5.

  • #2
    The Word was MADE flesh and dwelt among us... the Word of Life is Jesus whom the Father creates all things through, by, with and for.
    He has been with the Father since the beginning and The Word is God, the Voice of God, the Arm of God, the Hand of God and the Light of the world, whom is the one who has come to the prophets in the name of the LORD. The Father, The Word/Son and Spirit are all three One God!
    Heb 11:3

    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
    KJV

    John 1:1-5
    1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
    KJV

    John 9:5

    5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
    KJV

    Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
    KJV

    The purpose of my posts are not to cause bicker or division, but to show truth from the scripture for edifying of the soul. It does not matter what we think, it is what God's Word says that matters.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by afaithfulone4u View Post
      The Word was MADE flesh and dwelt among us... the Word of Life is Jesus whom the Father creates all things through, by, with and for.
      He has been with the Father since the beginning and The Word is God, the Voice of God, the Arm of God, the Hand of God and the Light of the world, whom is the one who has come to the prophets in the name of the LORD. The Father, The Word/Son and Spirit are all three One God!
      Heb 11:3

      3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
      KJV

      John 1:1-5
      1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

      2 The same was in the beginning with God.

      3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

      4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

      5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
      KJV

      John 9:5

      5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
      KJV

      Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

      2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

      3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

      4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
      KJV
      Your problem is that Creation was an event that took place BEFORE the Son's exaltation/elevation above the angels.

      As both the writer's assertion in 1:4 and overarching theme in 2:5 both clearly show, he is only interested in those *events* that resulted in him being made higher/superior to the angels AFTER having been made lower them at his birth (2:9). Thus a primordial event, such as Creation, does not fit the writer's flow of argument in 1:4-13.

      I have yet thus far to find either a Trin or Oneness who actually understands the writer's flow of argument in chapters 1-2.

      Comment


      • #4
        10 "And, “In the beginning, Lord, you founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
        11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like clothing;
        12 like a cloak you will roll them up, and like clothing they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never end.” (Heb. 1:10-12, NRSV)

        Trins commonly argue that Heb. 1:10-12 shows the Son's superiority to the angels because He is the Creator (God).

        The problem with this argument is that it goes against the writer's flow of argument, since vv. 10-12 are all PART of his elaboration to support his assertionoriginally made in v. 4; namely, as to HOW the Son has become or has attained to a status/rank superior to that of the angels, not how the Son has always been superior to the angels.

        "Thus he became so far better than the angels as he has inherited a name superior to theirs" (Heb. 1:4, NET)


        "Hebrews 1:5-14 elaborates verse 4 in demonstrating that Christ's exaltation gives him a dignity and status far superior to the angels (cf. Eph. 1:20; 1 Pet. 3:22) with verse 13 actually citing, in a form of inclusio, the passage (viz., Ps. 110:1)."

        "In that verse 4 states the central THEME that the writer develops in Hebrews 1-2, it may be said to represent the focal point of the two chapter, so that what follows verse 4 is an explication of the Son's superiority over the angels."

        Murray J. Harris, Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus (Eugene OR: Wipf & Stock, 1992) p 208 & 214


        "The catena of OT quotations in 1:5-13 elaborates the assertion in v 4 that by virtue of his exaltation[/B] the Son acquired[/B] a status superior to the angels."

        William L. Lane, Word Biblical Commentary, 47a; Hebrews 1-8 (Dallas, TX: Word Books, 1991), p 32.


        In short, it is by virtue of Christ's exaltation (not his transcendent Deity as God) that he has become superior to the angels.

        Again, the writer is not arguing for the Son's superiority over the angels because he is God (Creator), but the Son's superiority over the angels because he has become or attained to a status superior to them AFTER being made lower than them (Heb. 2:9). It is the exalted Son, not the preexistent Son, who has been exaltedor elevated above the angels.
        That statement is most certainly correct.


        Furthermore, it should be pointed out that all of the 7 OT quotations (Ps. 2:7; 2 Sa 7:14; Ps. 45:6-7; Ps. 102:25-27; Ps. 110:1) offered up in vv. 5-14 as affirmation of his assertion made in 1:4, have to do with "the world to come," since this is the overarching theme that he has been speaking about up to this point.

        "For he did not put the world to come, about which we are speaking, under the control of angels" (Heb. 2:5, NET)
        Correct.

        I submit that just as ALL of the quotations from the OT in 2:12-13 specifically serve to underscore the Son's solidarity with the rest of humanity, so too, do the catena of OT quotations in 1:5-13 specifically serve to underscore how the Son has become superior to the angels, since his resurrection-exaltation.

        Ask yourself: is the Genesis Creation an event in which it can be said the Son was exalted or elevated above the angels AFTER he was made lower than them? Of course not. Then it makes no contextual sense to interpret or understand the writer in vv. 10-12 (or in v. 8, for that matter) to be arguing for the Son's superiority over the angels because of his Deity as the Creator, for that would contextually go against his "assertion" made in 1:4, as well as against his overarching theme in 2:5.
        Good point.

        Hebrews 1:10-14 is to be read as a unit. The "he" of verse 13 is the Lord of verse 10. To sit at the right hand of God means to be given all the authority of God's throne. The point here is that Jesus was placed over all the works of God's hands, the works of creation mentioned in verses 10-12. The writer reiterates this again in the verses which immediately follow:

        For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. But one has testified somewhere, saying,

        “What is man, that You remember him?
        Or the son of man, that You are concerned about him?
        7 “You have made him a little lower than the angels;
        You have crowned him with glory and honor,<--- verse 1:13 - sits at the right hand of God
        And have appointed him over the works of Your hands; <---- same thing at verses 1:10-13 - he now sits at the right hand of God ruling over creation
        8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” <--- see 1:13 again. All things refers to the creation mentioned at 1:10-12
        For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
        Hebrews 2:5ff.

        The point there is that all things, including even the angels, were subjected to the risen Jesus when God seated him at His right hand. See also 1 Peter 3:22.
        Last edited by Servant of the Lord; 04-11-18, 11:48 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Servant of the Lord View Post

          That statement is most certainly correct.



          Correct.



          Good point.

          Hebrews 1:10-14 is to be read as a unit. The "he" of verse 13 is the Lord of verse 10. To sit at the right hand of God means to be given all the authority of God's throne.
          Good point.

          William Lane in his commentary on Hebrews 1-8 makes a similar point.

          "That the Son has been exalted to God's right hand means that he lives and rules with the authority and power of God himself."

          William L. Lane, Word Biblical Commentary, 47a, Hebrews 1-8 (Dallas, TX: Word Books, 1991), p 16.

          Now, if, as Trins assert, God the Son, upon completion of his period of humiliation, in which he as the God-Man secured our redemption, and thereby upon his resurrection-exaltation was consequently reinstated, or better yet, resumed his position as cosmic ruler, continue to live and rule with the authority and power of God himself?

          No doubt this is where the Trin word magic has to come into play:

          God the Son, according to his divine or transcendent existence, continued to exercise universal or cosmic rule while incarnate on earth, and still does so even after his resurrection-exaltation. Thus is in his post-God-Man existence that God the Son now lives and rules with the derived or conferred authority and power of God himself.

          This means that God the Son now essentially exercises cosmic or universal rule in two different/distinct existences: 1) Divine mode of being/existence, and 2) Divine-human mode of being/existence.

          Is this what Scripture really teaches?


          The point here is that Jesus was placed over all the works of God's hands, the works of creation mentioned in verses 10-12. The writer reiterates this again in the verses which immediately follow:

          For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. But one has testified somewhere, saying,

          “What is man, that You remember him?
          Or the son of man, that You are concerned about him?
          7 “You have made him a little lower than the angels;
          You have crowned him with glory and honor,<--- verse 1:13 - sits at the right hand of God
          And have appointed him over the works of Your hands; <---- same thing at verses 1:10-13 - he now sits at the right hand of God ruling over creation
          8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” <--- see 1:13 again. All things refers to the creation mentioned at 1:10-12
          For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
          Hebrews 2:5ff.

          The point there is that all things, including even the angels, were subjected to the risen Jesus when God seated him at His right hand. See also 1 Peter 3:22.
          Yep. Another point that I think should be brought out is that it seems hermeneutically inconsistent to assert that the writer to the Hebrews is arguing the Son is better than the OT prophets (1:1-2), Moses (3:1-6), and the Aaronic priests (4:15-5:10) as a man, but somehow when it comes to the angels, he must be both God and Man in order to be better than the angels.

          As Kermit Zarley rightly points out:

          "Third, he spares no effort in trying to prove that the heavenly-exalted Jesus is superior to all angels (vv. 5-14) as well as all men, including Moses (3.1-19), all of Israel’s priests, including the esteemed Melchizedek (7.1-16), and that Jesus’ priesthood is greater (9.1-28). Establishing all of this is superfluous if the author of Hebrews stated that Jesus is God.

          http://www.21stcr.org/multimedia-201...brews_1_8.html



          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

            Good point.

            William Lane in his commentary on Hebrews 1-8 makes a similar point.

            "That the Son has been exalted to God's right hand means that he lives and rules with the authority and power of God himself."

            William L. Lane, Word Biblical Commentary, 47a, Hebrews 1-8 (Dallas, TX: Word Books, 1991), p 16.
            That's actually the point of Hebrews 1:8; Christ has been given the right to execute the Father's authority.

            All one has to do is ask whether Hebrews 1:8 is referring to Jesus Christ's God and a rational response to that question immediately puts an end to all the stupidity.

            Now, if, as Trins assert, God the Son, upon completion of his period of humiliation, in which he as the God-Man secured our redemption, and thereby upon his resurrection-exaltation was consequently reinstated, or better yet, resumed his position as cosmic ruler, continue to live and rule with the authority and power of God himself?

            No doubt this is where the Trin word magic has to come into play:

            God the Son, according to his divine or transcendent existence, continued to exercise universal or cosmic rule while incarnate on earth, and still does so even after his resurrection-exaltation. Thus is in his post-God-Man existence that God the Son now lives and rules with the derived or conferred authority and power of God himself.

            This means that God the Son now essentially exercises cosmic or universal rule in two different/distinct existences: 1) Divine mode of being/existence, and 2) Divine-human mode of being/existence.

            Is this what Scripture really teaches?
            In general, Trinitarians really don't care what Scripture teaches. They do care about pretending to care.


            Yep. Another point that I think should be brought out is that it seems hermeneutically inconsistent to assert that the writer to the Hebrews is arguing the Son is better than the OT prophets (1:1-2), Moses (3:1-6), and the Aaronic priests (4:15-5:10) as a man, but somehow when it comes to the angels, he must be both God and Man in order to be better than the angels.

            As Kermit Zarley rightly points out:

            "Third, he spares no effort in trying to prove that the heavenly-exalted Jesus is superior to all angels (vv. 5-14) as well as all men, including Moses (3.1-19), all of Israel’s priests, including the esteemed Melchizedek (7.1-16), and that Jesus’ priesthood is greater (9.1-28). Establishing all of this is superfluous if the author of Hebrews stated that Jesus is God.

            http://www.21stcr.org/multimedia-201...brews_1_8.html


            Yes, the Trinitarian premise is plain goofy if you just stop and think about it. But when you have a desire to believe in your own lies, thinking about it is just what you don't want to do. Besides, you will be too busy making excuses for your own insanity.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Servant of the Lord View Post

              That statement is most certainly correct.



              Correct.



              Good point.

              Hebrews 1:10-14 is to be read as a unit. The "he" of verse 13 is the Lord of verse 10. To sit at the right hand of God means to be given all the authority of God's throne. The point here is that Jesus was placed over all the works of God's hands, the works of creation mentioned in verses 10-12. The writer reiterates this again in the verses which immediately follow:

              For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. But one has testified somewhere, saying,

              “What is man, that You remember him?
              Or the son of man, that You are concerned about him?
              7 “You have made him a little lower than the angels;
              You have crowned him with glory and honor,<--- verse 1:13 - sits at the right hand of God
              And have appointed him over the works of Your hands; <---- same thing at verses 1:10-13 - he now sits at the right hand of God ruling over creation
              8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” <--- see 1:13 again. All things refers to the creation mentioned at 1:10-12
              For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
              Hebrews 2:5ff.

              The point there is that all things, including even the angels, were subjected to the risen Jesus when God seated him at His right hand. See also 1 Peter 3:22.
              And The Lord of verse 10 is The Lord who created heaven and earth: THE SON.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Servant of the Lord View Post

                That's actually the point of Hebrews 1:8; Christ has been given the right to execute the Father's authority.

                All one has to do is ask whether Hebrews 1:8 is referring to Jesus Christ's God and a rational response to that question immediately puts an end to all the stupidity.



                In general, Trinitarians really don't care what Scripture teaches. They do care about pretending to care.




                Yes, the Trinitarian premise is plain goofy if you just stop and think about it. But when you have a desire to believe in your own lies, thinking about it is just what you don't want to do. Besides, you will be too busy making excuses for your own insanity.
                The point of Hebrews 1:8 is that The Son IS God.
                Next........

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Servant of the Lord View Post

                  That statement is most certainly correct.



                  Correct.



                  Good point.

                  Hebrews 1:10-14 is to be read as a unit. The "he" of verse 13 is the Lord of verse 10. To sit at the right hand of God means to be given all the authority of God's throne. The point here is that Jesus was placed over all the works of God's hands, the works of creation mentioned in verses 10-12. The writer reiterates this again in the verses which immediately follow:

                  For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. But one has testified somewhere, saying,

                  “What is man, that You remember him?
                  Or the son of man, that You are concerned about him?
                  7 “You have made him a little lower than the angels;
                  You have crowned him with glory and honor,<--- verse 1:13 - sits at the right hand of God
                  And have appointed him over the works of Your hands; <---- same thing at verses 1:10-13 - he now sits at the right hand of God ruling over creation
                  8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” <--- see 1:13 again. All things refers to the creation mentioned at 1:10-12
                  For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
                  Hebrews 2:5ff.

                  The point there is that all things, including even the angels, were subjected to the risen Jesus when God seated him at His right hand. See also 1 Peter 3:22.
                  I agree with all of this except the statement, "...to be given all the authority of God's Throne." This would suppose Jesus sits in place of YHWH who somehow disappears.

                  No...he is continually at the Right Hand of God and may be YHWH's Spokesman. But God never left the Throne Seat, and Jesus never leaves His Right Hand Place.
                  Shema will change the Christian World.

                  Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                  Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by john wilcox View Post
                    The point of Hebrews 1:8 is that The Son IS God.
                    Next........
                    As per usual you completely ignore Forever's OP as if he was the accused. And guilty.

                    Address his argument or close your yap sir. Even the jury can't convict the prosecutor. The trial is ABOUT the issue which you say is closed. Open your heart and mind or begone.
                    Shema will change the Christian World.

                    Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                    Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by john wilcox View Post
                      The point of Hebrews 1:8 is that The Son IS God.
                      Next........
                      You obviously didn't pay attention to my post, for if you had, you would have realized your above point is clearly refuted by the writer's assertion in 1:4; namely how the Son "has become" (not, has always been) so much superior to the angels.

                      "Thus he became so far better than the angels as he has inherited a name superior to theirs" (Heb. 1:4, NET)

                      In short, arguing the Son is God in the absolute sense is neither relevant nor necessary to the writer's argument.

                      Instead of responding with flippant remarks all the time, how about you actually start taking time to respond with cogent rebuttals.


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by john wilcox View Post
                        And The Lord of verse 10 is The Lord who created heaven and earth: THE SON.
                        Actually, no, for that would contextually contradict the writer's assertion in 1:4, his overarching theme of 2:5, as well as what the writer says in Hebrews 2:5-10, namely, that the One (the Father) who put the works of his hands [Genesis Creation] under man (i.e.,Adam), is the SAME One who has put all things of the New Creation ("the world to come") under His Son.

                        "Hebrews 2:5-10 New Living Translation (NLT) Jesus, the Man

                        5 And furthermore, it is not angels who will control the future world we are talking about. 6 For in one place the Scriptures say,


                        “What are mere mortals that you should think about them,
                        or a son of man[a] that you should care for him?
                        7 Yet for a little while you made them a little lower than the angels
                        and crowned them with glory and honor.[b]
                        8 You gave them authority over all things.”[c]
                        Now when it says “all things,” it means nothing is left out. But we have not yet seen all things put under their authority. 9 What we do see is Jesus, who for a little while was given a position “a little lower than the angels”; and because he suffered death for us, he is now “crowned with glory and honor.” Yes, by God’s grace, Jesus tasted death for everyone. 10 God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation. Footnotes:

                        1. 2:6 Or the Son of Man.
                        2. 2:7 Some manuscripts add You gave them charge of everything you made.
                        3. 2:6-8 Ps 8:4-6 (Greek version).


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

                          Actually, no, for that would contextually contradict the writer's assertion in 1:4, his overarching theme of 2:5, as well as what the writer says in Hebrews 2:5-10, namely, that the One (the Father) who put the works of his hands [Genesis Creation] under man (i.e.,Adam), is the SAME One who has put all things of the New Creation ("the world to come") under His Son.

                          "Hebrews 2:5-10 New Living Translation (NLT) Jesus, the Man

                          5 And furthermore, it is not angels who will control the future world we are talking about. 6 For in one place the Scriptures say,


                          “What are mere mortals that you should think about them,
                          or a son of man[a] that you should care for him?
                          7 Yet for a little while you made them a little lower than the angels
                          and crowned them with glory and honor.[b]
                          8 You gave them authority over all things.”[c]
                          Now when it says “all things,” it means nothing is left out. But we have not yet seen all things put under their authority. 9 What we do see is Jesus, who for a little while was given a position “a little lower than the angels”; and because he suffered death for us, he is now “crowned with glory and honor.” Yes, by God’s grace, Jesus tasted death for everyone. 10 God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation. Footnotes:

                          1. 2:6 Or the Son of Man.
                          2. 2:7 Some manuscripts add You gave them charge of everything you made.
                          3. 2:6-8 Ps 8:4-6 (Greek version).

                          Evasion. The passage in question is Hebrews 1:10 in which The Father is speaking TO The Son acknowledging Him to be The Lord(and as we all know Jesus Christ is that ONE Lord)and the Creator of heaven and earth.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

                            You obviously didn't pay attention to my post, for if you had, you would have realized your above point is clearly refuted by the writer's assertion in 1:4; namely how the Son "has become" (not, has always been) so much superior to the angels.

                            "Thus he became so far better than the angels as he has inherited a name superior to theirs" (Heb. 1:4, NET)

                            In short, arguing the Son is God in the absolute sense is neither relevant nor necessary to the writer's argument.

                            Instead of responding with flippant remarks all the time, how about you actually start taking time to respond with cogent rebuttals.

                            Of course The Son has become so much superior to the angels because He became, for a time, LOWER than them.
                            BTW what is the difference between God in the absolute sense and God in the non-absolute sense??????

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by john wilcox View Post
                              Of course The Son has become so much superior to the angels because He became, for a time, LOWER than them.
                              BTW what is the difference between God in the absolute sense and God in the non-absolute sense??????
                              Godman became LOWER than the angels at what time, trinster? You spinnen yarns into a corner again sir. Can't get over the mountains of yarn can you sir?
                              Shema will change the Christian World.

                              Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                              Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

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