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Which manifestations of Yahweh are explicitly equated with the second eternal Person?

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  • Which manifestations of Yahweh are explicitly equated with the second eternal Person?

    Originally posted by ACAinstructor View Post
    The Incarnation isn't the only manifestation of Yahweh equated with Jesus. There are manifestations in the Old Testament which are explicitly equated with Jesus.

    Since I believe there is only one eternal Person...

    I believe every manifestation of Yahweh in the Old Testament is a manifestation of the same eternal Person who also manifested as Jesus.

    For example, the eternal Person who manifested in the garden with Adam and Eve was the same eternal Person who manifested in the manger in Bethlehem.

    Genesis 3:8... And they heard the voice of Yahweh God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


    But since Trinitarians believe there are three eternal Persons...

    Which manifestations of Yahweh in the Old Testament are explicitly equated with the second eternal Person?


    P.S.

    For those who are new to this forum, here is an overview of what I believe...

    For this creation, YHWH God determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul with a spiritual body (the Word of God). God created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created each of us, God himself as the Word is Jesus. At his birth, the Word exchanged his spiritual body for a natural body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, the Word regained his spiritual body and he will also give each of his elect a spiritual body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.

    Feel free to critique my comments, but don't forget to post your answer to the question.
    God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

    The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

  • #2
    You may be disappointed to discover, at least if your dramatic OP title is any indication, that I agree with you. And I am a Trinitarian.
    You skewed the discussion when you decided to put "equated with the second eternal Person" in your OP instead of what I wrote, which was "equated with Jesus."

    And I cannot succinctly answer you, because I have answered it in real detail in at least two papers, directly on this topic. Here is one of them, in posts #834, 835, and 836.
    It is now certain that triunity is supported by the original languages.
    Exegeses have revealed 21 ascriptions of "God," 70 conflations (inc. 8 direct OT substitutions), 150 divine allusions and actions, and 21 triune references. And counting.

    Comment


    • #3
      Let's go by the scriptures,
      It is written:
      Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
      KJV


      1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
      KJV

      The Father:


      2 Chron 18:20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
      KJV


      The Son, the Word:

      Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

      2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
      KJV

      The Spirit,Holy Ghost:

      Ezek 11:5 And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the LORD; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them.
      KJV

      All three are considered God when you see them in scripture!!

      And since the Father is Spirit, and Jesus said that the Word is Spirit and the Holy Ghost is Spirit, and you must receive the Spirit and the Word to receive God.

      The Father forsook His Word(The Son) to die on the cross for our sakes as Jesus fulfilled the old fleshly law with all it's 613 ordinances that were against us, leaving them nailed to the cross. But resurrected THE WORD as our new covenant in Christ who is the Word of God that was made flesh, but is no longer flesh and we should never worship images of a flesh man saying it is God. Jesus is the eternal Word which is our life. We are to be having the commandments written upon our hearts as the Spirit(Dove,heavenly Jerusalem our mother) guides us into all Truth.
      Last edited by afaithfulone4u; 06-13-18, 10:39 AM.
      The purpose of my posts are not to cause bicker or division, but to show truth from the scripture for edifying of the soul. It does not matter what we think, it is what God's Word says that matters.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ACAinstructor View Post
        You skewed the discussion when you decided to put "equated with the second eternal Person" in your OP instead of what I wrote, which was "equated with Jesus."

        Most Trinitarians would say "Jesus" is the selfsame as "the second eternal Person".

        What do you see as the difference between "Jesus" and "the second eternal Person"?

        If there is no difference, then how did I skew the discussion?
        God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

        The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ACAinstructor View Post
          [font=SBL BibLit]You may be disappointed to discover, at least if your dramatic OP title is any indication, that I agree with you. And I am a Trinitarian.

          So you agree with me that every manifestation of Yahweh in the Old Testament is a manifestation of the same eternal Person who also manifested as Jesus.

          Correct?

          That was my precise statement, and I am using the Trinitarian definition of "Person" as "a center of consciousness".
          God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

          The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Presentist View Post
            Most Trinitarians would say "Jesus" is the selfsame as "the second eternal Person".

            What do you see as the difference between "Jesus" and "the second eternal Person"?

            If there is no difference, then how did I skew the discussion?
            It was skewed because there is a difference. There is a difference between the original understanding of person (Latin persona from the Greek prosopon) from the modern understanding of person.
            I avoid the word "person" because of the confusion it causes. I use only biblical terms.

            It is now certain that triunity is supported by the original languages.
            Exegeses have revealed 21 ascriptions of "God," 70 conflations (inc. 8 direct OT substitutions), 150 divine allusions and actions, and 21 triune references. And counting.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Presentist View Post
              So you agree with me that every manifestation of Yahweh in the Old Testament is a manifestation of the same eternal Person who also manifested as Jesus.

              Correct?
              Correct, according to the old understanding of "person."

              Originally posted by Presentist View Post
              That was my precise statement, and I am using the Trinitarian definition of "Person" as "a center of consciousness".
              This is also correct. These three aspects of Yahweh all exhibit personal will, functions, actions, and even speech(!) independently of the others, yet are one entity. You see, to talk about this in English, I have to use words like "aspect" and "entity." I would rather everyone just read the Hebrew and Greek, and stop kissing through the proverbial handkerchief!
              It is now certain that triunity is supported by the original languages.
              Exegeses have revealed 21 ascriptions of "God," 70 conflations (inc. 8 direct OT substitutions), 150 divine allusions and actions, and 21 triune references. And counting.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ACAinstructor View Post
                Correct, according to the old understanding of "person."


                This is also correct. These three aspects of Yahweh all exhibit personal will, functions, actions, and even speech(!) independently of the others, yet are one entity. You see, to talk about this in English, I have to use words like "aspect" and "entity." I would rather everyone just read the Hebrew and Greek, and stop kissing through the proverbial handkerchief!
                Center of consciousness, from the consciousness of men who cannot and willnot understand...

                Originally in Greek thought, "substantia" or the Latin idea of God's materiel. DUMMY thinking.

                Shema extrapolates intuitively FIRST a single God-Character. For a child who was taught Shema from the start. One Referent, Subject or Being.

                One God-PERSON if you want to go there. One God-INTELLIGENCE if you want to be genius aboudit. One God-WILL if you want to be scripturally adept.
                Shema will change the Christian World.

                Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ACAinstructor View Post
                  Correct, according to the old understanding of "person."

                  So what do you say is the old understanding of "person"?


                  I assume you are referring to the Athanasian Creed...

                  4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

                  5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
                  God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

                  The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ACAinstructor View Post
                    These three aspects of Yahweh all exhibit personal will, functions, actions, and even speech(!) independently of the others, yet are one entity. You see, to talk about this in English, I have to use words like "aspect" and "entity." I would rather everyone just read the Hebrew and Greek, and stop kissing through the proverbial handkerchief!

                    According to your doctrine of the Trinity...

                    Which aspect of Yahweh was speaking in Genesis 1:26...

                    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

                    A) God the Father
                    B) The Son of God
                    C) The Holy Spirit

                    Last edited by Presentist; 06-13-18, 12:24 PM.
                    God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

                    The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Presentist View Post
                      According to your doctrine of the Trinity...

                      Which aspect of Yahweh was speaking in Genesis 1:26...

                      And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

                      A) God the Father
                      B) The Son of God
                      C) The Holy Spirit
                      Here's the beautiful part: it doesn't matter. The Bible presents all three as one entity, Yahweh.
                      I have been excited about your positions thus far; I think there is some healing possible between dogmatic defenses of Trinitarian vocabulary, and some who have problems with that terminology. If one loves Jesus (as He actually is) and is thus indwelled by Holy Spirit, we need to heed the dictum to have unity in the essentials, liberty in the non-essentials, and love in both.

                      It is now certain that triunity is supported by the original languages.
                      Exegeses have revealed 21 ascriptions of "God," 70 conflations (inc. 8 direct OT substitutions), 150 divine allusions and actions, and 21 triune references. And counting.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Presentist View Post
                        So what do you say is the old understanding of "person"?
                        I disagree with none of this.
                        It is now certain that triunity is supported by the original languages.
                        Exegeses have revealed 21 ascriptions of "God," 70 conflations (inc. 8 direct OT substitutions), 150 divine allusions and actions, and 21 triune references. And counting.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ACAinstructor View Post
                          I disagree with none of this.

                          So what definition for the word "person" would you give?

                          4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

                          5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
                          God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

                          The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Presentist View Post
                            So what definition for the word "person" would you give?

                            4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

                            5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
                            I have been saying that I actually avoid that word. I think it's best for everyone. Let's use only the terms the Bible uses. I myself, as a Trinitarian, do not talk about the "three persons of the Trinity."
                            It is now certain that triunity is supported by the original languages.
                            Exegeses have revealed 21 ascriptions of "God," 70 conflations (inc. 8 direct OT substitutions), 150 divine allusions and actions, and 21 triune references. And counting.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ACAinstructor View Post
                              I have been saying that I actually avoid that word. I think it's best for everyone. Let's use only the terms the Bible uses. I myself, as a Trinitarian, do not talk about the "three persons of the Trinity."

                              You said you agree with these statements...

                              4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

                              5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.


                              So you must have an idea of the definition of the word "person" that is used in those statements.

                              I am simply asking you what is your definition of the word "person" in those statements.

                              Or tell me that you do not agree with those statements as written.

                              God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

                              The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

                              Comment

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