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Isnt Jesus clearly here said to be the creator?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by john wilcox View Post
    In Hebrews 1:10 The SON is indentified as that ONE Creator.
    So Trinitarians, just to be clear...


    Which of these statements BEST represents your view...

    A) In Hebrews 1:10, the person of the Son is identified as the creator.
    B) In Hebrews 1:10, the person of the Son is identified as one of three creators.
    C) In Hebrews 1:10, the essence of the Son is identified as the creator.

    I say A. What do you say?


    And which of these statements BEST represents your view...

    A) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the person Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.
    B) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the person Jesus is clearly said to be one of three creators.
    C) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the essence of Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.

    I say A. What do your say?


    P.S.

    For those of you who are new to this forum, here is an overview of my Infinity view...

    For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul with a spiritual body (the Word of God). God the Father created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created each of us, God himself as the Word is Jesus. At his birth, the Word exchanged his spiritual body for a natural body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, the Word regained his spiritual body and he will also give each of his elect a spiritual body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
    God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

    The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by nothead View Post



      Mystical interpretations are for sibyls, pokemons, and um...mystics sir. Not a single disciple or apostle was a mystic sir. They had faith to wait in the upper room, and pray, by command of Jesus who told them they would receive their Father's Promise sir. That's all it took sir.

      Your quote does not mean or follow with the view that Jesus has to be God in order for us to be in blessed Covenant with YHWH sir.
      You aren't in the covenant so no surprise you don't know The Messiah. The letter kills but it's Ruach which gives life.

      The disciples in the upper room weren't heathens but genuine Hebrews.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by StephenC View Post

        Hebrews 1:10 (quoting a Psalmist speaking to God) is bring up the topic of the work that God's hands have made. Now turn the page in your bible to Hebrews 2 and you will see why. Paul makes the argument that Jesus is "put" in charge of the work that God's hands have made:.
        5 For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. 6 It has been testified somewhere, “What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? 7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, 8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.”
        Notice that the creator is one person, and the person put in charge is another person and the person "put" in charge is specifically a man. Your understanding destroys the point that Paul is leading up to. Paul is trying to convince the Hebrew audience that even though the law came by angels (Acts 7:53, Gal 3:19), and they are very powerful (Heb 2:1-5), the world to come is to be ruled by a man and not angels. He does so by citing Psalm 8.

        How does Psalm 8 mean anything, if God simply puts God in charge of the earth when Psalm 8 is specifically about man being put in charge?
        The book of Hebrews is for Hebrews and not heathens who were never in the covenant at any time. Messiah is presented as having taken on the seed of Abraham as Kinsman Redeemer of Israel. You wouldn't know 1% percent of what the writer of Hebrews meant. You need to understand first gospel message of Messiah coming in FLESH is to the Hebrews as their Kinsman Redeemer. He came to seek the lost sheep of the house of Israel to initiate a renewed covenant with them:

        Heb 8:10 Because this is the covenant that I shall make with the house of Yisra’ĕl after those days, says יהוה, giving My laws in their mind, and I shall write them on their hearts, and I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.



        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Presentist View Post

          Absolutely!!!


          But just to be clear. Which statement BEST represents your view...

          A) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the person Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.
          B) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the person Jesus is clearly said to be one of three creators.
          C) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the essence of Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.

          I say A. What do your say?


          P.S.

          Here is an overview of my Infinity View...

          For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul with a spiritual body (the Word of God). God the Father created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created each of us, God himself as the Word is Jesus. At his birth, the Word exchanged his spiritual body for a natural body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, the Word regained his spiritual body and he will also give each of his elect a spiritual body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.

          Here is an overview of the Trinity view...

          Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
          Presentist all of your choices say the same thing in a different way.



          A) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the person Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.
          B) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the person Jesus is clearly said to be one of three creators.
          C) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the essence of Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.
          8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

          It is your humanism that prevents you of recognizing the sameness to verities of the divine in each of your options.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Aeg4371 View Post
            Presentist all of your choices say the same thing in a different way.
            The question was...


            Which statement BEST represents your view...

            A) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the person Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.
            B) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the person Jesus is clearly said to be one of three creators.
            C) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the essence of Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.

            I say A. What do your say?
            God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

            The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Presentist View Post

              So Trinitarians, just to be clear...


              Which of these statements BEST represents your view...

              A) In Hebrews 1:10, the person of the Son is identified as the creator.
              B) In Hebrews 1:10, the person of the Son is identified as one of three creators.
              C) In Hebrews 1:10, the essence of the Son is identified as the creator.

              I say A. What do you say?


              And which of these statements BEST represents your view...

              A) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the person Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.
              B) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the person Jesus is clearly said to be one of three creators.
              C) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the essence of Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.

              I say A. What do your say?


              P.S.

              For those of you who are new to this forum, here is an overview of my Infinity view...

              For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul with a spiritual body (the Word of God). God the Father created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created each of us, God himself as the Word is Jesus. At his birth, the Word exchanged his spiritual body for a natural body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, the Word regained his spiritual body and he will also give each of his elect a spiritual body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
              Within the CONTEXT of Hebrews 1:10 A is correct, since ONLY The Son is spoken of in THIS particular passage.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by dannyfortruth View Post
                The book of Hebrews is for Hebrews and not heathens who were never in the covenant at any time.
                OK.

                Originally posted by dannyfortruth View Post
                Messiah is presented as having taken on the seed of Abraham as Kinsman Redeemer of Israel.
                False. Messiah is presented as being the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:16), not "as having taken on the seed of Abraham".

                Originally posted by dannyfortruth View Post
                You wouldn't know 1% percent of what the writer of Hebrews meant. You need to understand first gospel message of Messiah coming in FLESH is to the Hebrews as their Kinsman Redeemer.
                Jesus did come in the flesh.

                Originally posted by dannyfortruth View Post
                He came to seek the lost sheep of the house of Israel to initiate a renewed covenant with them:

                Heb 8:10 Because this is the covenant that I shall make with the house of Yisra’ĕl after those days, says יהוה, giving My laws in their mind, and I shall write them on their hearts, and I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.
                Your claim doesn't make any sense and your quote doesn't make any sense in relation to it.
                • First, Christ is mediator of the new covenant. He didn't initiate the covenant. Just as Moses was the mediator of the old covenant, and likewise he didn't initiate it.
                • Second, the covenant spoken of in Hebrews 8:10 is the new covenant. The one Christ's father proclaimed in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
                Your post packs a whole lot of error into not saying very much while at the same time accusing me of not knowing what the author of Hebrews meant.

                Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by john wilcox View Post
                  Within the CONTEXT of Hebrews 1:10 A is correct, since ONLY The Son is spoken of in THIS particular passage.
                  The Hebrews writer is making clear to the Hebrews that The Son is the same Yahuah come in flesh to fullfill His promises made to Abraham in which he and his chosen descendants would be heirs of the world to come. First, The Son would have to deliver them from the curse of The Law and redeem them being their Kinsman Redeemer.

                  That's why The Messiah calls them His brethren in Hebrews Chapter 2.

                  Book of Hebrews also has warning to fellow brethren falling away into going back to the Old Covenant in literal observation of The Law.

                  It also speaks of OT fathers of faith and their reproach for Messiah and how that they will not be complete apart from brethren till the end of this age.

                  Comment


                  • #39

                    Originally posted by Aeg4371 View Post
                    Presentist all of your choices say the same thing in a different way.

                    Presentist replied
                    06-29-18, 12:36 PM
                    The question was...


                    Which statement BEST represents your view...

                    A) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the person Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.
                    B) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the person Jesus is clearly said to be one of three creators.
                    C) In Hebrews 1:8-10, the essence of Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.

                    I say A. What do your say?
                    I understand the question and I am telling you that all three of your choices say the exact same thing stated a different way. Hence all three statements are correct in accordance to context. The person Jesus one of three and the Divine essence are the same and in noway distinct therefrom really, nevertheless each word term or predicate is spoken according to their own proper idea.

                    Context seems to escape many anti Trinitarians..
                    Last edited by Aeg4371; 07-02-18, 12:24 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40


                      Originally posted by StephenC View Post
                      Jesus is making us into his image, because he is in God's image (Heb 1:3) and therefore he is not God. Man being made in God's image is the great climax of the creation and God is still working to make that happen.

                      docphin replied
                      06-28-18, 10:00 PM
                      The Spirit of God ("Ruach Elohim") is "Christ Jesus (soul and Spirit) in the flesh (body)", so it is the Spirit that is of God and in the image of God and that gives life, the flesh is of no use, according to John (John 6:63). Since Ruach Elohim is creating the heavenly host in the world to come then he is making us into his image, that is, of the Spirit of Christ, which is from the one, true God and Father. The Spirit of God or Spirit of Christ is the same spirit in us, according to Paul (Romans 8:9).

                      People are confounding the Father and Son in scripture by loosely using the term "God" as if it only means one thing. It actually can mean different things. For instance Paul calls our adversary "the God of this world". When talking about Father and Son I try to use the specific terms that apply to them, El and Elohim. Elohim has two names though, YHWH and Jesus, but neither YHWH nor Jesus is equal to the one, true God and Father, EL. Simply, "God" in the New Testament does not necessarily equal the same "God" in the Old Testament. The translators did not help by substituting "God" for both Elohim and El in the Old Testament because it makes it hard to distinguish the difference between them and “God” in the New Testament. I would assert that “God” (Theos) in the New Testament refers to “God” (El) in the old testament, most of the time. Keep in mind Paul’s statement,

                      “For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father,

                      According to the Law, Abraham did not know the name YHWH Elohim (Exodus 6:3) but walked before El Shaddai (Genesis 17:1). If the one true God and Father is El and the Son is YHWH Elohim, then it helps to know that the former is manifest through the latter, which is why scripture describes YHWH Elohim eating, and drinking with Abraham on earth, whereas El is invisible and transcendent (1 John 4:12).
                      Last edited by docphin; 06-28-18, 10:45 PM.
                      On the contrary the creed says," neither dividing the substance nor confounding and confusing the subsistence".. Whether this name God means more than one thing is of no consequence on account of we signify One supreme thing when we say this name God. The Father is not God sr and Jesus is not god jr. The Father and Son are indivisibly one. Not as you semi Arians assert (one thing and another thing).

                      Comment


                      • #41


                        Originally posted by docphin View Post
                        Because the one true God and Father is El, and the Son is Elohim. El is putting his Son, Ruach Elohim in charge of the "world to come".

                        StephenC replied
                        06-28-18, 10:45 PM
                        Using "the Son" in place of "Elohim", you read your bible to say:
                        In the beginning, "the Son" created the heavens and the earth. And "the Son" hovered over the waters...….. and "the Son" made man his image... and on the seventh day "the Son" ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
                        So in your bible, what did Christ's Father do?
                        In the beginning God( Father Son Holy Spirit) created the heavens and the earth. And the spirit moved (by way of procession ) upon the face of the deep.

                        The Son does as the Father do, after all the Father and Son are absolutely undivided in being, as they share one and the same Divine nature.And thus constitutes a single originating principle of the Holy Spirit.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Aeg4371 View Post
                          I understand the question and I am telling you that all three of your choices say the exact same thing stated a different way.

                          So you say these two statements say the exact same thing...

                          In Hebrews 1:8-10, the person Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.
                          In Hebrews 1:8-10, the essence of Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.


                          Just to be clear...

                          Does "the person Jesus" refer to the exact same thing as "the essence of Jesus"?


                          Since that is the only difference between the two statements, and since you say the statements say the exact same thing...

                          I think you will say Yes. But I would like for you to confirm that.


                          P.S.

                          If the "person" refers to the exact same thing as the "essence"...
                          And since you say the person Jesus is distinct from the person God the Father...
                          Then the essence of Jesus is distinct from the essence of God the Father.

                          Or would you like to change your view and say they are not the exact same thing...
                          For example, you could say the essence is "what" they are, and the person is "who" they are.
                          That is how other Trinitarians have described the difference between the words.
                          God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

                          The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

                          Comment


                          • #43


                            Originally posted by Aeg4371 View Post
                            I understand the question and I am telling you that all three of your choices say the exact same thing stated a different way.

                            Presentist replied
                            07-02-18, 12:03 PM
                            So you say these two statements say the exact same thing...

                            In Hebrews 1:8-10, the person Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.
                            In Hebrews 1:8-10, the essence of Jesus is clearly said to be the creator.


                            Just to be clear...

                            Does "the person Jesus" refer to the exact same thing as "the essence of Jesus"?


                            Since that is the only difference between the two statements, and since you say the statements say the exact same thing...

                            I think you will say Yes. But I would like for you to confirm that.


                            P.S.

                            If the "person" refers to the exact same thing as the "essence"...
                            And since you say the person Jesus is distinct from the person God the Father...
                            Then the essence of Jesus is distinct from the essence of God the Father.

                            Or would you like to change your view and say they are not the exact same thing...
                            For example, you could say the essence is "what" they are, and the person is "who" they are.
                            That is how other Trinitarians have described the difference between the words.
                            No I do not need to change my view. The Father and Son are distinct on account of paternity/fatherhood is not filiation/sonship and filiation/sonship is not paternity/fatherhood. There is only one Divine essence therefore the substance of the Father is in noway distinct therefrom the substance of the Son, and this is by reason of God supreme simplicity.

                            Essence in general signifies the quiddity of a thing whereas this word person in particular signifies the individuation of a thing( ie fatherhood, sonship).

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Aeg4371 View Post



                              In the beginning God( Father Son Holy Spirit) created the heavens and the earth. And the spirit moved (by way of procession ) upon the face of the deep.
                              You clearly do not know who created what, otherwise you would not lump three distinct and separate things trying to do the same thing. Confounding Father, Son, and Spirit is an attempt to cover all bases at one time to avoid being wrong. That might work in baseball, but fails in the search for truth. You have no clue what you are talking about.
                              We shall not injure God by remaining ignorant of Him, but shall deprive ourselves of His friendship.

                              Comment


                              • #45


                                Originally posted by Aeg4371 View Post


                                In the beginning God( Father Son Holy Spirit) created the heavens and the earth. And the spirit moved (by way of procession ) upon the face of the deep.

                                docphin replied
                                07-02-18, 12:35 PM
                                You clearly do not know who created what, otherwise you would not lump three distinct and separate things trying to do the same thing. Confounding Father, Son, and Spirit is an attempt to cover all bases at one time to avoid being wrong. That might work in baseball, but fails in the search for truth. You have no clue what you are talking about
                                .
                                You clearly are wanting for knowledge wisdom and basic understanding . God His Word and His Spirit are distinct but not separate things. Likewise the Father Son Holy Spirit are distinct in subsistence ,but NOT however separate in being/ substance. Therefore we do not confound what is nowise of matter and composition of quantitative parts.

                                We believe the Father Son Holy Spirit are undivided supremely being itself, whereas you believe the Father Son Holy Spirit are three separate things. Unfortunately for you there is nothing in scriptures that remotely suggest the Father Son And the Holy Spirit are not indivisibly ONE thing. God Himself.

                                Note to you. Although God is the Father scriptures alone declares God to be greater than what is contained in paternity or any relative name.
                                Last edited by Aeg4371; 07-02-18, 03:27 PM. Reason: correction

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