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Do you believe the Father and Jesus are always "first" and "second"?

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  • Do you believe the Father and Jesus are always "first" and "second"?

    Originally posted by Aeg4371 View Post
    The Father is not God sr and Jesus is not god jr.

    You say the Father and Jesus are not Sr and Jr But...

    Do you believe the Father and Jesus are always "first" and "second"?


    For example...

    As long as someone thinks there are three persons in the Trinity...

    Does it matter which person they associate with "the first person of the Trinity"?

    And which person they associate with "the second person of the Trinity". Etc.


    P.S.

    I believe the same one who is the Father is the same one who is Jesus...

    For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul with a spiritual body (the Word of God). God the Father created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created each of us, God himself as the Word is Jesus. At his birth, the Word exchanged his spiritual body for a natural body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, the Word regained his spiritual body and he will also give each of his elect a spiritual body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
    God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

    The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

  • #2
    Originally posted by Presentist View Post

    You say the Father and Jesus are not Sr and Jr But...

    Do you believe the Father and Jesus are always "first" and "second"?

    For example...

    As long as someone thinks there are three persons in the Trinity...

    Does it matter which person they associate with "the first person of the Trinity"?

    And which person they associate with "the second person of the Trinity". Etc.
    Yes. The persons of the Trinity cannot be interchanged, comparable to how a man's conscience, conscious and subconscious cannot be interchanged.

    That reconciles Scriptures.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Kampioen View Post

      Yes. The persons of the Trinity cannot be interchanged, comparable to how a man's conscience, conscious and subconscious cannot be interchanged.

      That reconciles Scriptures.
      However, the scriptures never anywhere present persons of a trinity God which is a pagan invention!

      God bless you,

      SeventhDay

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

        However, the scriptures never anywhere present persons of a trinity God which is a pagan invention!
        If it reconciles Scriptures, then it is Scriptural.

        A Oneness God that where the Father cannot help but experiencing being the Son He is speaking to is fakery and paganism!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kampioen View Post

          If it reconciles Scriptures, then it is Scriptural.

          A Oneness God that where the Father cannot help but experiencing being the Son He is speaking to is fakery and paganism!
          It is much more believable because it correlates with God who is one than a God who is three which the scriptures never express but expresses God who is one which reconciles the scriptures!

          God bless you,

          SeventhDay

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Presentist View Post


            You say the Father and Jesus are not Sr and Jr But...

            Do you believe the Father and Jesus are always "first" and "second"?


            For example...

            As long as someone thinks there are three persons in the Trinity...

            Does it matter which person they associate with "the first person of the Trinity"?

            And which person they associate with "the second person of the Trinity". Etc.


            P.S.

            I believe the same one who is the Father is the same one who is Jesus...

            For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul with a spiritual body (the Word of God). God the Father created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created each of us, God himself as the Word is Jesus. At his birth, the Word exchanged his spiritual body for a natural body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, the Word regained his spiritual body and he will also give each of his elect a spiritual body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
            It is more exact to say sonship proceeds fatherhood rather than the Father and Jesus are first and second ,on account of the unity of essence ,and the words of My Lord when He said ," I and My Father are one".It then follows the same one who is what , God , who is the Father and the same who is what ,God who, is the Son. It doesn't matter that we say," One what in three who's", because each who ( this number three) is one what GOD. Hence what is God and who is God, the Father. What is God and who is God, the Son. What is God and who is God ,the Holy Spirit. There is no distinction in this name God , nevertheless there is a distinction in this name Father, in relative opposition to the name Son,and in relative opposition to this name Holy Spirit. So the Greeks say,"tres hypostases un Ousia".

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Aeg4371 View Post

              It is more exact to say sonship proceeds fatherhood rather than the Father and Jesus are first and second ,on account of the unity of essence ,and the words of My Lord when He said ," I and My Father are one".It then follows the same one who is what , God , who is the Father and the same who is what ,God who, is the Son. It doesn't matter that we say," One what in three who's", because each who ( this number three) is one what GOD. Hence what is God and who is God, the Father. What is God and who is God, the Son. What is God and who is God ,the Holy Spirit. There is no distinction in this name God , nevertheless there is a distinction in this name Father, in relative opposition to the name Son,and in relative opposition to this name Holy Spirit. So the Greeks say,"tres hypostases un Ousia".
              It is not Father and Jesus coming in succession because first of all we are discussing father and the Son which is Jesus. Next, it is not a matter of Father and Son coming in succession but simultaneously. The Father begetting the Son is simultaneous because the Word made flesh or Spirit conception is the Father and the Son coming together in relationship at the same time.

              Nevertheless, though this is simultaneous the Son did proceed from the Father but there was no Father in relationship with the Son until the Word was made flesh.

              However, no where is scriptures stating that God is two or three persons but that the Word was made flesh thus we are dealing with one person who is God in two roles of himself and we know him as Jesus which is the Father in the Son and the Son in the Father and is one!

              God bless you,

              SeventhDay

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

                It is not Father and Jesus coming in succession because first of all we are discussing father and the Son which is Jesus. Next, it is not a matter of Father and Son coming in succession but simultaneously. The Father begetting the Son is simultaneous because the Word made flesh or Spirit conception is the Father and the Son coming together in relationship at the same time.

                Nevertheless, though this is simultaneous the Son did proceed from the Father but there was no Father in relationship with the Son until the Word was made flesh.

                However, no where is scriptures stating that God is two or three persons but that the Word was made flesh thus we are dealing with one person who is God in two roles of himself and we know him as Jesus which is the Father in the Son and the Son in the Father and is one!

                God bless you,

                SeventhDay
                Seventhday you can't see the forest for the trees. Firstly nobody said anything about succession nor is there anything written in my post that supposes the idea of succession. Secondly it is ridiculous to say,"we are discussing father and the Son which is Jesus" then follow that with ,"simultaneously ". You say Jesus is the Father and the Son only to contradict that ancient heresy with, " the Father and the Son coming together in relationship at the same time".That is a senseless statement.


                The Father begetting the Son is simultaneous to what Seventhday? (Being GOD) You said the Son did not proceed from the Father whereas In Jn 8:42 The Son Christ Himself said "From God I proceeded neither came I of myself but HE sent me.. You love to rewrite the scriptures or you're ignorant.

                It is more exact to say, "God is simultaneously manifestly expressed in the person of the Father and another of the Son" According to scriptures alone we draw the distinction between the Father and the Son in the same way we draw a distinction between God and His Logos which is rightly termed," generation and procession of the Word". or in its scholastic term ,"emanation of intellection". So when anti Trinitarians like Nothead say Christ the Logos is the uttered Word or when you say the Logos is God in self expression or when Oneness say the Logos is God means of self disclosure or His thought plan or idea , all such notions is theologically and scriptural y termed ,""emanation of intellection"" signified by the Divine generation of the Logos, and the Word Himself proceeding is properly called eternally begotten and Son.

                Bottom line as regards verities of the divine ( which is beyond the temporal suppositions you erroneously assert as theology), what is proper to fatherhood is expressed in person ( not role) and what is proper to sonship is expressed in person (not role) (ie I am in the Father and the Father is in me, this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased ,And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.) , thus one person from another, but not however as if other from the Divine nature. You need to shed yourself of the created conditions contained in this word person because we do not signify a plurality of persons under the corporal conditions you continue to argue. This number three pluralized said of God signifies a determinate manner (ie three persons n God) of a thing singly , NOT a number of things plurally.

                Note ,even erroneously asserting God in a plurality of modal roles, is your unscriptural way of signifying a determinate manner of a thing.

                You remain refuted and full of straw as usual..

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aeg4371 View Post

                  Seventhday you can't see the forest for the trees. Firstly nobody said anything about succession nor is there anything written in my post that supposes the idea of succession. Secondly it is ridiculous to say,"we are discussing father and the Son which is Jesus" then follow that with ,"simultaneously ". You say Jesus is the Father and the Son only to contradict that ancient heresy with, " the Father and the Son coming together in relationship at the same time".That is a senseless statement.


                  The Father begetting the Son is simultaneous to what Seventhday? (Being GOD) You said the Son did not proceed from the Father whereas In Jn 8:42 The Son Christ Himself said "From God I proceeded neither came I of myself but HE sent me.. You love to rewrite the scriptures or you're ignorant.

                  It is more exact to say, "God is simultaneously manifestly expressed in the person of the Father and another of the Son" According to scriptures alone we draw the distinction between the Father and the Son in the same way we draw a distinction between God and His Logos which is rightly termed," generation and procession of the Word". or in its scholastic term ,"emanation of intellection". So when anti Trinitarians like Nothead say Christ the Logos is the uttered Word or when you say the Logos is God in self expression or when Oneness say the Logos is God means of self disclosure or His thought plan or idea , all such notions is theologically and scriptural y termed ,""emanation of intellection"" signified by the Divine generation of the Logos, and the Word Himself proceeding is properly called eternally begotten and Son.

                  Bottom line as regards verities of the divine ( which is beyond the temporal suppositions you erroneously assert as theology), what is proper to fatherhood is expressed in person ( not role) and what is proper to sonship is expressed in person (not role) (ie I am in the Father and the Father is in me, this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased ,And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.) , thus one person from another, but not however as if other from the Divine nature. You need to shed yourself of the created conditions contained in this word person because we do not signify a plurality of persons under the corporal conditions you continue to argue. This number three pluralized said of God signifies a determinate manner (ie three persons n God) of a thing singly , NOT a number of things plurally.

                  Note ,even erroneously asserting God in a plurality of modal roles, is your unscriptural way of signifying a determinate manner of a thing.

                  You remain refuted and full of straw as usual..
                  Expressing God corporately is the only way to express the Word made flesh and it is indeed roles and not persons. Are you sleeping Aeg4371?

                  God bless you,

                  SeventhDay

                  Comment

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