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Who spoke Isaiah 65:1-7: YHWH, Jesus, or the Heavenly Father?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by john wilcox View Post
    HUGE difference. In the OT the term Father referred to The Lord of Israel.
    In The NT The Father is used in contradistinction to The Son and He is The Father of all believers in The Son and has a personal relatrionship whith each individual believer, something which did NOT exist in the OT.
    You assume the trinity in the NT. That's your problem.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Ironman3 View Post
      It means YHWH is salvation, not the son. Just like Isaiah 63:16 points out.

      thanks for playing.. .

      Shabbat cometh.. . bye bye.
      There are many Fathers like there are many Lords and so-called Gods, but “only one, true God and Father” whom the Lord Jesus Christ knew and served. Apparently, YHWH Elohim is not the heavenly Father since the apostle attributes the words of YHWH to the Son of God or Christ.

      Of course, you are free to differ. Since you did respond (thank you) I would like to address your comment, for what it is worth.

      I believe that the outer man formed of flesh (aka the earthly man) by YHWH (Genesis 2:7) is the flesh of Christ, whereas, the inner man created in the image of Ruach Elohim (aka the spiritual man) is the Spirit of Christ (Genesis 1:26). Therefore, in that sense, YHWH is the father of us, according to the flesh, whereas, the Spirit of Christ in us is the exact image of Christ’s heavenly Father, the one, true God, (“EL”)
      Last edited by docphin; 07-13-18, 08:06 PM.
      We shall not injure God by remaining ignorant of Him, but shall deprive ourselves of His friendship.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Ironman3 View Post
        You assume the trinity in the NT. That's your problem.
        The Trinity is clearly revealed in The NT. NO need to assume anything.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by docphin View Post

          There are many Fathers like there are many Lords and so-called Gods, but “only one, true God and Father” whom the Lord Jesus Christ knew and served. Apparently, YHWH Elohim is not the heavenly Father since the apostle attributes the words of YHWH to the Son of God or Christ.

          Of course, you are free to differ. Since you did respond (thank you) I would like to address your comment, for what it is worth.

          I believe that the outer man formed of flesh (aka the earthly man) by YHWH (Genesis 2:7) is the flesh of Christ, whereas, the inner man created in the image of Ruach Elohim (aka the spiritual man) is the Spirit of Christ (Genesis 1:26). Therefore, in that sense, YHWH is the father of us, according to the flesh, whereas, the Spirit of Christ in us is the exact image of Christ’s heavenly Father, the one, true God, (“EL”)
          Yes, Jesus is the only one true God and we know God as the Father which is indeed a role but we know God as a brother to us which is a role. Jesus means Yah is salvation and we know that YHWH is Salvation and there is not two Saviors!

          Luk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

          Luk 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
          Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

          Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
          Elizabeth and Mary are referring to the same Lord God who is Jesus!

          God bless you,

          SeventhDay

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          • #20
            Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

            Yes, Jesus is the only one true God and we know God as the Father which is indeed a role but we know God as a brother to us which is a role. Jesus means Yah is salvation and we know that YHWH is Salvation and there is not two Saviors!

            Elizabeth and Mary are referring to the same Lord God who is Jesus!

            God bless you,

            SeventhDay
            So, according to you, YHWH is the heavenly Father who is also Christ Jesus, right? That would put your response squarely into option E.

            I think it is impious to imagine that true God and Father is flesh and died on a cross but that is your free choice. Thanks for responding.
            We shall not injure God by remaining ignorant of Him, but shall deprive ourselves of His friendship.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Ironman3 View Post
              It means YHWH is salvation, not the son. Just like Isaiah 63:16 points out.

              thanks for playing.. .

              Shabbat cometh.. . bye bye.
              Isaiah points out YHWH The Father of Israel is the Redeemer. NO specific Person is mentioned.
              That awaits NT revelation. And I never play games.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Ironman3 View Post

                I've pointed out Paul's apostasy before.

                What does Jesus name mean in Hebrew?
                Joshuah - "ya - shua" = God our salvation.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by docphin View Post

                  So, according to you, YHWH is the heavenly Father who is also Christ Jesus, right? That would put your response squarely into option E.

                  I think it is impious to imagine that true God and Father is flesh and died on a cross but that is your free choice. Thanks for responding.
                  God who is Spirit did not die on the cross but God in the role of the Son did!

                  God bless you,

                  SeventhDay

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

                    God who is Spirit did not die on the cross but God in the role of the Son did!

                    God bless you,

                    SeventhDay
                    IOW God The Son, who became a MAN, died on the cross.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by john wilcox View Post
                      IOW God The Son, who became a MAN, died on the cross.
                      There is no God the Son who became a Son of God is the source of your problem and the Father begetting the Son you completely fail to understand.

                      Please examine John 1:14 and may the Spirit guide you. It is not only discussing the Son of God!

                      God bless you,

                      SeventhDay

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

                        There is no God the Son who became a Son of God is the source of your problem and the Father begetting the Son you completely fail to understand.

                        Please examine John 1:14 and may the Spirit guide you. It is not only discussing the Son of God!

                        God bless you,

                        SeventhDay
                        John 1:14 tells us The Word is The SON of The FATHER.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by docphin View Post
                          The prophet Isaiah attributes the subject scripture to YHWH (verse 7). Paul attributes the words to Christ Jesus (Romans 10:20-21) speaking through the prophet to the Gentiles and to Israel.

                          Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

                          “I have been found by those who did not seek me;
                          I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

                          But of Israel he [Lord Jesus Christ] says,

                          “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”


                          This question is mainly for Unnies who believe that YHWH is the heavenly Father of Jesus.

                          The question is simple, why does an apostle attribute these words to Christ Jesus when the prophet attributes them to YHWH?

                          A) Because the apostle is wrong. The Son cannot be speaking because YHWH is the heavenly Father.
                          B) Because YHWH Elohim is the Son.
                          C) Because Isaiah got it wrong or the scripture is corrupted.
                          D) I don’t know and don’t care because it conflicts with what I want to believe.
                          E) God the Father spoke them but in his modal role as Son.

                          (Isaiah 65:1-7)
                          1 I let myself be sought out by those who did not ask me, be found by those who did not seek me. I said, "Here I am, here I am," to a nation that did not call on my name.

                          2 I held out my hands all day long to a disobedient people, who walk in a way that is not good, pursuing their own inclinations;

                          3 a people who continually provoke me to my face, they keep sacrificing in gardens and waving their hands on stone altars;

                          4 who sit inside tombs, and spend the night in secret places; who eat swine’s flesh, with the broth of detestable things in their pots;

                          5 who say, "Keep to yourself; do not touch me, I am too holy for you." Such people are smoke in my nostrils, a fire that keeps burning all day long.

                          6 See, it stands written before me: I will not keep silent, but I will repay; I will indeed repay into their laps

                          7 both your iniquities and your ancestors’ iniquities together, says the LORD (YHWH)


                          Why do you assume Paul attributes those words to Jesus?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by redbeer View Post
                            Why do you assume Paul attributes those words to Jesus?
                            Because the whole chapter is about confessing Christ Jesus as Lord which culminates in Paul demonstrating from scripture the “words of Christ” (Romans 10:17) which Isaiah wrote through the prophetic spirit, indicating that the Jews would reject him but the Gentiles would receive him.

                            (Romans 10:17). So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

                            (18) But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for...

                            (V 20) Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

                            “I have been found by those who did not seek me;
                            I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

                            But of Israel he says,

                            “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”
                            Last edited by docphin; 07-14-18, 07:34 AM.
                            We shall not injure God by remaining ignorant of Him, but shall deprive ourselves of His friendship.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post
                              God who is Spirit did not die on the cross but God in the role of the Son did!
                              I don’t think you realize that your statement contradicts itself.

                              This is the difference between opinion and truth. We can claim anything, for example, square wheels work great, but ultimately for it to be true the rubber must meet the road for the car to move, and I don’t think your car will be going anywhere soon.
                              We shall not injure God by remaining ignorant of Him, but shall deprive ourselves of His friendship.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by docphin View Post

                                I don’t think you realize that your statement contradicts itself.

                                This is the difference between opinion and truth. We can claim anything, for example, square wheels work great, but ultimately for it to be true the rubber must meet the road for the car to move, and I don’t think your car will be going anywhere soon.
                                Actually square wheels will work but we are not discussing square wheels are we?

                                God who is Spirit took on two roles when the Word was made flesh as expressed in John 1:14 and Isaiah 9:1 confirms that and so do many other scriptures.

                                What does Spirit conception mean when it correlates to the Father begetting the Son?

                                God bless you,

                                SeventhDay

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