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What do Trinitarians mean when they say God "came under the influence of"...

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  • What do Trinitarians mean when they say God "came under the influence of"...

    Originally posted by Kampioen View Post

    I believe God came under the influence of the created human senses to become experientially aware as the human soul of Jesus but the localized soul and flesh is creation ie God manifest in the flesh. That reconciles 1Ti 3:16.

    1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    What do Trinitarians mean when they say God "came under the influence of" the created human senses?

    Does "came under the influence of" mean "controlled by"?
    God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

    The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

  • #2
    Originally posted by Presentist View Post


    What do Trinitarians mean when they say God "came under the influence of" the created human senses?

    Does "came under the influence of" mean "controlled by"?
    I never heard a "TRINITARIAN" use that terminology.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Presentist View Post


      What do Trinitarians mean when they say God "came under the influence of" the created human senses?

      Does "came under the influence of" mean "controlled by"?
      Could it be true that we are dumber than barbarians and camel riders? The mode of signification, "came under the influence of" mean " Any terminology signified in theology would naturally have foundation in scriptures. As in the expression.of the written word. It follows the statement signifies or denotes, And the Word the was made flesh and made His dwelling among us.God sent forth His Son made of a woman.who thou He was in the form of God made HImself of no reputation by taking the likeness of a servant,being found in human form (ie came under the influence of" the created human senses).

      And the most obvious ,"

      9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

      Terms like bodily, flesh, blood, under the law and all things composite in and of itself signifies, " under the influence of" the created human senses". God by nature is not of body,b but all brain, infinite intelligible species/ wisdom. Therefore God only needs to comprehend humanity ( not turn or change into a human )or"come under the influence of" the created human senses" by the relation of self awareness..

      The man Christ speaks acts with divine self awareness because He has divine self subsistence. having been hypostaticalized or personalized by the Logos Himself. That is to say Christ is the hypostasis of God. even as He"
      came under the influence of" the created human sense"

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Presentist View Post

        What do Trinitarians mean when they say God "came under the influence of" the created human senses?

        Does "came under the influence of" mean "controlled by"?
        The perspective is controlled by ie is come under the influence of the created non-omniscient human senses by the power of God, comparative to how our mind traps us in a dream to being who the dream makes us to be. ...

        In the non-divine human .. the soul/spirit has a created life principle under the influence of the human senses.

        The human soul/spirit is localized and thus can't contain God. But God's uncreated power can localize attention in it in substitute for the created life principle.

        That is the conclusion that reconciles Scriptures.

        1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

        If God became a non-omnipresent localized human soul/spirit in Jesus as is your view then God would have to be mutable. And if the divine nature became also human nature then He is no longer a man or God but new third nature neither God or man.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Presentist View Post

          What do Trinitarians mean when they say God "came under the influence of" the created human senses?

          Does "came under the influence of" mean "controlled by"?
          To put it simply, Trins don't believe God can become localized except in God's power ie creating/inducing a localized manifestation/attention/communication in the created world.

          Thus God can't actually become a concrete localized human soul/spirit as is your view. The soul/spirit must be created.

          Came under the influence is like when we are under the influence of our dreams and make decisions according to our dreams. ... God can render His mindset to being under the influence of the human senses to subjectively be what the senses dictate and make decisions accordingly, ... God being the life principle in the soul/spirit instead of the created life principle of a typical man.

          That is the conclusion that reconciles Scriptures.

          1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kampioen View Post

            To put it simply, Trins don't believe God can become localized except in God's power ie creating/inducing a localized manifestation/attention/communication in the created world.

            Thus God can't actually become a concrete localized human soul/spirit as is your view. The soul/spirit must be created.

            Came under the influence is like when we are under the influence of our dreams and make decisions according to our dreams. ... God can render His mindset to being under the influence of the human senses to subjectively be what the senses dictate and make decisions accordingly, ... God being the life principle in the soul/spirit instead of the created life principle of a typical man.

            That is the conclusion that reconciles Scriptures.

            1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
            If you take this to a full conclusion that harmonizes with scriptures "His mindset to being under the influence of the human senses" was to such a degree that this accounts for the Father and Son relationship, rather than a dependence on the mindset of a 2nd co-equal God person. With the Trinity the distinction in mindset is mostly up in the eternal Godhead. In other words Jesus said "my Father" because he was speaking as a 2nd eternal person in a human body. But he talked that way even before the incarnation if we could have heard him. With Oneness the distinction in mindset is due to the incarnation. In other words Jesus said "my Father" because he was speaking from his mindset as a real man. Before the incarnation Jesus didn't have a human mind or any mindset distinct from the Father. The Logos was God, was the Father's Word Himself not another mind.
            Last edited by Neal; 09-11-18, 04:01 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Neal View Post

              If you take this to a full conclusion that harmonizes with scriptures "His mindset to being under the influence of the human senses" was to such a degree that this accounts for the Father and Son relationship, rather than a dependence on the mindset of a 2nd co-equal God person. With the Trinity the distinction in mindset is mostly up in the eternal Godhead. In other words Jesus said "my Father" because he was speaking as a 2nd eternal person in a human body. But he talked that way even before the incarnation if we could have heard him. With Oneness the distinction in mindset is due to the incarnation. In other words Jesus said "my Father" because he was speaking from his mindset as a real man. Before the incarnation Jesus didn't have a human mind or any mindset distinct from the Father. The Logos was God, was the Father's Word Himself not another mind.
              The Oneness issue is not with the Son but with the Father. Your Son view is the same as Trinitarianism. Presentist's Oneness view is not. But since the Oneness Father continues to be omniscient with no internal distinction He would not be able to help but omnisciently experience being the Son speaking that He is suppose to relate to. That makes the Oneness Father's communication to the Son fakery.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Kampioen View Post

                Came under the influence is like when we are under the influence of our dreams and make decisions according to our dreams. ... God can render His mindset to being under the influence of the human senses to subjectively be what the senses dictate and make decisions accordingly, ... God being the life principle in the soul/spirit instead of the created life principle of a typical man.

                Wow!!! That would be a BIG difference between my view and the Trinitarian view then...

                Trinitarians believe "God can render His mindset to being under the influence of the human senses".

                Whereas I believe "Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." (Psalm 135:6)

                In other words, God's mindset is in NO WAY under the influence of the human senses!!!!


                For those of you who are new to this forum, here is an overview of what I believe...

                For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul with a spiritual body (the Word of God). God the Father created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created each of us, God himself as the Word is Jesus. At his birth, the Word exchanged his spiritual body for a natural body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, the Word regained his spiritual body and he will also give each of his elect a spiritual body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
                God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

                The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Presentist View Post

                  Wow!!! That would be a BIG difference between my view and the Trinitarian view then...

                  Trinitarians believe "God can render His mindset to being under the influence of the human senses".

                  Whereas I believe "Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." (Psalm 135:6)

                  In other words, God's mindset is in NO WAY under the influence of the human senses!!!!
                  God is under the influence of the human senses only in reference to Jesus, not outside of the incarnation.

                  However, being that you deny it, that means that you have Jesus just God walking around despite the incarnation, not really having become a man, ie the heresy of Apollinarianism.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kampioen View Post

                    God is under the influence of the human senses only in reference to Jesus, not outside of the incarnation.
                    I understand.

                    You believe the human that God formed ex nihilo and then assumed is the only human God is under the influence of.

                    In other words, God is not under yours and my influence.

                    But I believe transcendent God is not influenced by ANY human.


                    Originally posted by Kampioen View Post

                    However, being that you deny it, that means that you have Jesus just God walking around despite the incarnation, not really having become a man, ie the heresy of Apollinarianism.
                    No.

                    I believe transcendent God also manifest as the human nature of Jesus. In other words, as 100% human spiritual soul.

                    Whereas you believe Jesus has a concrete divine awareness instead of a concrete human awareness like the rest of us...


                    Last edited by Presentist; 09-13-18, 04:36 PM.
                    God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

                    The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Presentist View Post

                      I understand.

                      You believe the human that God formed ex nihilo and then assumed is the only human God is under the influence of.

                      In other words, God is not under yours and my influence.

                      But I believe transcendent God is not influenced by ANY human.
                      The influence is caused by God's decision and power to make it happen, not that there's anything human nature can do about it.


                      No.

                      I believe transcendent God also manifest as the human nature of Jesus. In other words, as 100% human spiritual soul.

                      Whereas you believe Jesus has a concrete divine awareness instead of a concrete human awareness like the rest of us...
                      Can the divine nature change? (yes/no). I say no.

                      Is the human nature of Jesus' soul also divine nature? I say no.

                      Does the concrete human nature and concrete divine nature of Jesus' soul constitute two concrete natures? (yes/no) ... or is it one concrete nature that is both human and divine? (yes/no)

                      I say two natures, one immutable and one not, the immutable which possesses the awareness. One nature would be hybridism/Euthycianism. Is that what you believe? (yes/no)

                      I believe Jesus has one concrete divine nature that is subjectively human to the created human senses. The subjective human nature is concrete in as far as it is real. And thus Jesus has a subjectively concrete human nature.

                      Jesus is subjectively human as all humans are subjectively human despite the natures otherwise.

                      Please answer the yes/no questions and give detail.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kampioen View Post
                        Can the divine nature change? (yes/no). I say no.
                        No. The divine Spirit is eternal with no beginning and no ending.


                        Originally posted by Kampioen View Post
                        Is the human nature of Jesus' soul also divine nature? I say no.
                        No. I believe everything immaterial as well as material about the man Christ Jesus is human. But whereas YHWH creates each of our human immaterial parts ex nihilo, YHWH manifest as the human immaterial part of the man Christ Jesus.


                        Originally posted by Kampioen View Post
                        Does the concrete human nature and concrete divine nature of Jesus' soul constitute two concrete natures? (yes/no)
                        No. I believe everything immaterial as well as material about the man Christ Jesus is human.


                        Originally posted by Kampioen View Post
                        ... or is it one concrete nature that is both human and divine? (yes/no)
                        No. I believe everything immaterial as well as material about the man Christ Jesus is human. But whereas YHWH creates each of our human immaterial parts ex nihilo, YHWH manifest as the human immaterial part of the man Christ Jesus.


                        Originally posted by Kampioen View Post
                        I say two natures, one immutable and one not, the immutable which possesses the awareness. One nature would be hybridism/Euthycianism. Is that what you believe? (yes/no)
                        No. I believe everything immaterial as well as material about the man Christ Jesus is human, whereas you believe the man Christ Jesus has a concrete divine awareness.


                        P.S.

                        For those of you who are new to this forum, here is an overview of what I believe...

                        For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul with a spiritual body (the Word of God). God the Father created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created each of us, God himself as the Word is Jesus. At his birth, the Word exchanged his spiritual body for a natural body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, the Word regained his spiritual body and he will also give each of his elect a spiritual body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
                        God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

                        The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kampioen View Post
                          I say two natures, one immutable and one not, the immutable which possesses the awareness.
                          I answered your yes/no questions, now can you answer mine...


                          You say humans consist of concrete human soul, concrete human spirit, concrete human body, and concrete human awareness.

                          (Whereas I think awareness is not a concrete noun but is an abstract noun for the state or condition of being aware.)

                          Did the man Christ Jesus' concrete human awareness get replaced by the Word's concrete divine awareness? (yes/no)
                          God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

                          The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Presentist View Post

                            I answered your yes/no questions, now can you answer mine...


                            You say humans consist of concrete human soul, concrete human spirit, concrete human body, and concrete human awareness.

                            (Whereas I think awareness is not a concrete noun but is an abstract noun for the state or condition of being aware.)

                            Did the man Christ Jesus' concrete human awareness get replaced by the Word's concrete divine awareness? (yes/no)
                            Jesus Christ was aware as BOTH God and Man. NOTHING was "replaced".

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Presentist View Post

                              I answered your yes/no questions, now can you answer mine...

                              You say humans consist of concrete human soul, concrete human spirit, concrete human body, and concrete human awareness.

                              (Whereas I think awareness is not a concrete noun but is an abstract noun for the state or condition of being aware.)

                              Did the man Christ Jesus' concrete human awareness get replaced by the Word's concrete divine awareness? (yes/no)
                              No. He was born in Mary with the Word as the concreted divine awareness to begin with.

                              Comment

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