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The "Christian Shema," Part II

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  • The "Christian Shema," Part II

    Drew4d has this OP from Dec 2015 and I will repost this verbatum, since online searches still refer to it.

    He and notably ACA Instructor have used this interpretive option:

    Sometimes cited as a defeater for the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 8:6 is actually a positive proof for the opposite. Although, some may futility try to ignore the clear teaching by Paul that Jesus is identified as and with the God of Israel, scholars from both sides of the debate acknowledge that Paul is "splitting the Shema" between the one God the Father and the one Lord Jesus Christ. The key terms of the Greek translation of Deut 6:4, "Lord", "God" and "one", are present within the monotheistic teaching of Paul in 1 Cor 8. The context being, the Corinthian believers are confused about whether or not eating food that was sacrificed to idols is acceptable. Paul says 'yes' because in reality, the pagan gods don't exist for there is no God but one. Paul then alludes to the Shema in striking terms. He calls the one God of the Shema "the Father, from whom are all things"; and the one Lord of the Shema "Jesus Christ, through whom are all things." Again, the key terms are present, only now both the Father and the Son are credited for being creator of "all things". And again, scholars from both sides agree:

    First he (Paul) asserts that Christ the Lord also is one; thereby he (Paul) splits the Shema (Deut 6:4), the Jewish confession of monotheism between God the Father and Christ the Lord in a way that has no earlier parallel. Christology in the Making; pg 180. James D. G. Dunn

    Paul’s interpretation of the Shema in 1 Cor 8:6 is the first place he identifies Christ as co-creator with God, talking of “one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.The Pre-exsistent Son; pg 27 Simon Gathercole

    The statement (1 Cor 8:6) has been composed from two sources, both clearly recognizable. One is the Shema, the classic Jewish statement from the Torah itself, recited twice daily by all observant Jews… It is now commonly recognized that Paul has here adapted the Shema and produced, as it were, a Christian version of it. Jesus and the God of Israel; pg 27 Richard Bauckham

    Paul has just echoed the Shema in his comment that “there is no God but one” (1 Cor 8:4). He acknowledges that pagans revere many so-called gods and lords (v. 5), but then reasserts Jewish monotheism in a distinctly Christian way: “The Lord our God the Lord is one” (Deut 6:4 ESV) becomes “for us there is one God… one Lord,” with the Father as the “one God” and the Lord Jesus Christ identified as the “one Lord”. Putting Jesus in His Place; pg 189 Bowman/Komoszewski

    For example, in 1 Cor 8:6, the Deuteronomic “Lord” (kyrios) is, for Paul, the risen Lord. For many, this verse is a clincher, showcasing a “christological monotheism,” including Christ in the Shema. All the Greek words of the Shema in the Greek translation of the Bible used by the earlier Christians are repeated by Paul in 1 Cor 8:6. The “God” and “Lord” of the Shema, which both identify the one God of Israel, are now split between “God” the Father and the “Lord” Jesus Christ. How God Became Jesus; pg 141. Chris Tilling

    Paul’s readers could have little doubt that Paul was attributing a role in creation to the “one Lord Jesus Christ.” What is noteable here is that the sequence of prepositions has been divided between the one God and the one Lord. Just as Paul in effect split the Shema between the one God and the one Lord, so the formula has split God’s role as creator between the Father and Jesus Christ. The one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things,” clearly existed before the creation of “all things (ta panta).” The Theology of Paul; 267-68 James D. G. Dunn


    It is clear that Paul not only identifies Jesus Christ with and as the God of Israel, but as creator of all things as well...



    Gut golly, if you or your mother or sister or brother did not notice the FIRST THINGS about this verse, I would know whether to laugh or cry. LAUGH for joy, or cry out HALLELUYAH.

    The titles AND the prepositions differ here, LUMLUX. Please tell me why this is?

    Prepositions work the same way, by the way IN ENGLISH sir. All things are FROM GOD, the Son AND the Father because ALL THINGS are from the two CO-Creators. Is this not your view sir? So why then DIFFERING prepositions sir? AND TITLES sir?

    Let's look at this specifically, since a speed-read may only center on 1 Cor 8:6 vaguely:

    5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

    6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    EX HOU for GOD the Father and DI HOU for "LORD" (no upper/lower case) the Son. What trinitarian view says is CONFLATION or SAME SENSE for both. Both the ACTION of the preposition and the STATUS of REFERENTS.

    POLEEZE what you gonna do when the POLEECE I mean LOWEEZY gonna pan fry yo' FACE, George Jefferson?
    Shema will change the Christian World.

    Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

    Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

  • #2
    Does nothead believe 1 Cor 8:6b that says through Jesus the world was created?

    How could he? Doesn't he believe in a created Jesus?

    John 1:14 The Word became a human being and lived here with us.
    John 14:17 He is the Holy Spirit, he lives with you now and later will be in you.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Photine View Post
      Does nothead believe 1 Cor 8:6b that says through Jesus the world was created?
      ]
      How could he? Doesn't he believe in a created Jesus?
      Instrument of creation, Jesus is part of the PLAN of all things. No Christian believes Jesus has ACCOMPLISHED all things. This ongoing variable called "Jesus" is what ALL CREATION is eventually transformed over, the righteous man of ALL TIME.

      Gut golly, GEDDON BOARD that GOSPEL TRAIN whoo HOO. Does Jesus have to have existed FROM CREATION to do all this? NO, since he hasn't DONE all of this EVEN TODAY.

      See Jewish Encyclopedia, Preexistence. SAINTS are written-in the Book of Life BEFORE THEY WERE BORN. So too MESSIAH sir. But not only this but God hath PREDETERMINED Jesus to be that variable by which...all...things...become...on...earth...as... it...is...inth heaven. Ith heaven. Somethingth.
      Shema will change the Christian World.

      Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

      Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by nothead View Post
        See Jewish Encyclopedia,
        So nothead does not actually believe that through Jesus the world was made.

        Ps. 33:6
        By the Word of the LORD the heavens were made,

        ^ "The Word"... NOT Jesus?

        nothead would have to say "affirmative, NOT Jesus, because he's a created being.."
        John 1:14 The Word became a human being and lived here with us.
        John 14:17 He is the Holy Spirit, he lives with you now and later will be in you.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Photine View Post

          So nothead does not actually believe that through Jesus the world was made.

          Ps. 33:6
          By the Word of the LORD the heavens were made,

          ^ "The Word"... NOT Jesus?

          nothead would have to say "affirmative, NOT Jesus, because he's a created being.."
          Jesus is not the Word. This comes from a literal interpretation of "naming" in Rev 19. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

          But, as with Isa 7, Jesus was not LITERALLY called by name, Emmanuel. The etymology of name was in reference to what authority he came in.

          Besides, in near-view, HEZEKIAH had to be the near view referent and this verse had to apply TO HIM ALSO.

          In odder words, the STRONG'S CONCORDANCE definition of the Word AS JESUS 7 times is absolutely GIBBERISH.
          Shema will change the Christian World.

          Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

          Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by nothead View Post

            Jesus is not the Word.
            For through the living and eternal word of God you have been born again as the children of a parent who is immortal, not mortal.
            1 Peter 1:23

            ^NOT Jesus?.....
            John 1:14 The Word became a human being and lived here with us.
            John 14:17 He is the Holy Spirit, he lives with you now and later will be in you.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Photine View Post

              For through the living and eternal word of God you have been born again as the children of a parent who is immortal, not mortal.
              1 Peter 1:23

              ^NOT Jesus?.....
              What is the DOMINANT Semitic definition for Word, and then the SECONDARY definition of Word sir? You don't know the FIRST fundamental things, and are you PAYING me to tell you sir?

              Hint: Memra Jewish Encyclopedia. SPECIFICALLY:

              "The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided.

              Please send donation to GomerBeenThereDoneThatSoShaddap.com.
              Shema will change the Christian World.

              Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

              Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

              Comment


              • #8
                We've been through this before. I gave you an example from 1 Peter 5:12 showing how active agency works. There was God and nothing else. Then, from the Father through the Son, all things came into existence. It's not a difficult concept to follow. The use of different prepositions expands on the process.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by drewd4d View Post
                  We've been through this before. I gave you an example from 1 Peter 5:12 showing how active agency works. There was God and nothing else. Then, from the Father through the Son, all things came into existence. It's not a difficult concept to follow. The use of different prepositions expands on the process.
                  Yo' dude. I dunno what verse that is off the top my head. But...just to mention...that you can have Jesus as NOT GOD ALMIGHTY in your third to last sentence, and...all is still well.

                  Git on DOWN to that still well and drink yo' watah, wampum. It is not a difficult concept to follow. God had planned Jesus to fulfill all things FROM THE CREATION. HIS Creation.

                  WHATEVER you mean by this, what this actually means, is...that the SAME EXACT THING is not meant for "all things created" between Referents. Jesus is intrumental, used as instrument, EASILY seen here as subordinate. Like...God's OTHER instruments, wisdom and knowledge and speaking forth Word and strength. ALL ASPECTS, and Jesus is INSTRUMENT or SHALIACH doing HIS WILL. The different prepositions EXPANDS upon the process, to use your own wording, Wordup.

                  NOTHING else, eh? Even a CANUCK knows that the heavens and the angels existed before our world did.
                  Shema will change the Christian World.

                  Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                  Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by drewd4d View Post
                    We've been through this before. I gave you an example from 1 Peter 5:12 showing how active agency works. There was God and nothing else. Then, from the Father through the Son, all things came into existence. It's not a difficult concept to follow. The use of different prepositions expands on the process.
                    10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

                    11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

                    12 By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.

                    13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

                    Please explain what the HAY you mean here bro. I mean...you not exactly my bro, but lettuce assume, bro.
                    Shema will change the Christian World.

                    Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                    Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by nothead View Post

                      10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

                      11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

                      12 By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.

                      13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

                      Please explain what the HAY you mean here bro. I mean...you not exactly my bro, but lettuce assume, bro.
                      Through Sylvanis, I have written to you...

                      The preposition, dia, is the same as 1Corinthians 8:6. Peter dictates the words to Sylvanis, Sylvanis writes them down. Active agency. There was no epistle called 1 Peter, then there was, from Peter through Sylvanis. There was no creation, then there was, from the Father through the Son. I can't explain it any easier than that. Either you agree or you do not. It's pretty straight forward and logical, but to each his own.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by drewd4d View Post
                        Through Sylvanis, I have written to you...

                        The preposition, dia, is the same as 1Corinthians 8:6. Peter dictates the words to Sylvanis, Sylvanis writes them down. Active agency. There was no epistle called 1 Peter, then there was, from Peter through Sylvanis. There was no creation, then there was, from the Father through the Son. I can't explain it any easier than that. Either you agree or you do not. It's pretty straight forward and logical, but to each his own.
                        Yeayuh, but your own logic petarded your hoisted retardedness, Drew.

                        Your example of active agency is really INSTRUMENTAL agency. Silvanus had no INSPIRATION. Silvanus only COPIES what he heard. Remember the Trinitarian CREEDO sir. EQUAL Co-Creators.

                        And...don't give me no OUSIA jive. Ain't no OUSIA involved in your human analogy. Both are human but the Athanasian Creed says both are "one." The SAME "one." This means that Sylvanus IS Peter.

                        And...there are TWO HUMANS in view whereas in your religion, there cannot be TWO GODS in view. Boo hoo, try again, Silveranus.
                        Shema will change the Christian World.

                        Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                        Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nothead View Post

                          Yeayuh, but your own logic petarded your hoisted retardedness, Drew.

                          Your example of active agency is really INSTRUMENTAL agency. Silvanus had no INSPIRATION. Silvanus only COPIES what he heard. Remember the Trinitarian CREEDO sir. EQUAL Co-Creators.

                          And...don't give me no OUSIA jive. Ain't no OUSIA involved in your human analogy. Both are human but the Athanasian Creed says both are "one." The SAME "one." This means that Sylvanus IS Peter.

                          And...there are TWO HUMANS in view whereas in your religion, there cannot be TWO GODS in view. Boo hoo, try again, Silveranus.
                          You still don't get it. The only out you have is to become an Arian. Sylvanis was there when Peter was speaking. The Son was there when the Father created through the agency of the Son. If the Son precedes "all created things", then He is not a creation. "Clunk clunk" That's the sound of the mic hitting the floor. Drew out...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by drewd4d View Post

                            You still don't get it. The only out you have is to become an Arian. Sylvanis was there when Peter was speaking. The Son was there when the Father created through the agency of the Son. If the Son precedes "all created things", then He is not a creation. "Clunk clunk" That's the sound of the mic hitting the floor. Drew out...
                            Quite the diff, saying that two are EQUAL CREATORS...and that ONE creates with the OTHER ONE as agent. Don't you see what you did BROTHER??

                            You said Peter was the SPEAKER and Silvanus was the COPYIST. These are not EQUAL PARTNERS partner. Din't you ever have a BIDNESS brophy where one partner does NADA and gets the same cut of the profits?

                            And then you complained to your wife until she finally said it was your fault because she knew ALL ALONG he wasn't up to snuff?

                            As far as your claim goes, is there only one KIND of instrumentation involved sir? I already SHEWED you your problemo. With your analogy. Is it the only KIND of analogy which will work sir?

                            More specifically, does Jesus have to be ALIVE for God to put all things in order for him to be EVENTUAL catalyst to the IDEAL KINGDOM sir? Whereby the lamb will sleep with the lion and not get et sir? Which hasn't happened YET sir?

                            Shema will change the Christian World.

                            Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                            Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by drewd4d View Post

                              You still don't get it. The only out you have is to become an Arian. Sylvanis was there when Peter was speaking. The Son was there when the Father created through the agency of the Son. If the Son precedes "all created things", then He is not a creation. "Clunk clunk" That's the sound of the mic hitting the floor. Drew out...
                              "The only out is for you to become an Arian."

                              What WAS "an Arian?" The only actually known thing about them was that 1) They believed Jesus a "subordinate G(g)od" which trinitarians claim is a demi-urge or somesuch stupid concept.

                              But...in JUDAISM, all elohim not YHWH Elohim are lesser elohim. So then, this view is false. And...Jesus is subordinate "G(g)od" (elohim) by virtue of having been created (out of nothing, ex nihilo) in Arianism. I agree yes.

                              Jesus is second-PLACE elohim at the Right Hand of YHWH Elohim.

                              You quit before the dance was over sir. I ain't that good looken, but also ain't that impressed with your chicken struts. Pick the mic back up and give it to the DJ since you can't sing and dance simultaneously HAW HAW sir. Chicken struts ain't dancen either sir.
                              Shema will change the Christian World.

                              Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                              Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                              Comment

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