Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

My Inglorious Return

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • My Inglorious Return

    I am returning to post after a long absence and think I should clarify where I am coming from in my posts.
    I was raised in a large Canadian Pentecostal church until age 21. I left my denomination for at least 3 reasons:
    (1) I could no longer accept their doctrine that speaking in tongues is the unique and required evidence for "baptism in the Holy Spirit."
    (2) I could no longer embrace aspects of Pentecostal legalism and their anti-intellectual approach to the Bible and theology.
    (3) From my childhood I was given the gift of spiritual discernment. Even as a boy, when there was an interpretation of tongues, I involuntarily either froze as if confronted by a cobra or was moved to tears of joy to hear the Lord's voice. Unfortunately my discernment revealed to me that roughly 90% of charismatic manifestations are "of the flesh." The authenticity of interpretations of tongues and prophecy was almost invariably accepted uncritically without discernment and it was not acceptable to "make waves" by challenging any of these manifestations. Still, the small percentage that really is genuine is the best thing in modern churchianity! My early experiences of speaking in tongues and "the word of knowledge" include the most electrifying, life-changing, and Christ-exalting experiences of my life; and now several decades later I still draw spiritual and emotional nourishment from my precious memories of those experiences.

    I was basically driven to seminary by doubts arising from inner conflicts with my Pentecostal past and ultimately got my MDiv from Princeton and my doctorate in New Testament, Judaism, and Greco-Roman backgrounds from Harvard. I was a theology professor for 12 years at a Catholic university and then decided to become a United Methodist pastor. I retired in July, 2015. As a pastor, I defended the traditional biblical view of marriage and opposed gay marriage and ordination publicly at our Annual Conferences. This made me unpopular with UMC leadership and the minority of evangelical pastors and laity generally remained silent, fearing the consequences of public opposition. So I rejoice in the decision reached at the recent UMC General Conference to definitively ban same-sex marriage and ordination, a feat achieved because of the large African support of the traditional view of marriage. Now I fear for the fate of my former UMC church amid the bloodbath of a mass progressive exodus and bitter recrimination that is sure to ensue. My church was one of a minority of evangelical UMC churches in a mostly progressive Conference.

    How long I stay and post her remains to be seen. Many evangelicals posting here don't season their penchant for bluster with a modicum of intellectual rigor. Indeed simplistic and inaccurate straw man stereotypes often seem to be created and knocked down with vitriol, so that the actual arguments of opposing Christian perspectives can't seem to gain a fair hearing. A t the same time, I don't suffer fools gladly and must confess that, when I was posting here before I sometimes allowed myself to unwittingly engage in questionable disparagement in protest of receiving the same.
    So this is an experiment for me. It will be interesting to see whether temperatures can be lowered enough to promote meaningful interaction.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Berserk View Post
    I am returning to post after a long absence and think I should clarify where I am coming from in my posts.
    I was raised in a large Canadian Pentecostal church until age 21. I left my denomination for at least 3 reasons:
    (1) I could no longer accept their doctrine that speaking in tongues is the unique and required evidence for "baptism in the Holy Spirit."
    (2) I could no longer embrace aspects of Pentecostal legalism and their anti-intellectual approach to the Bible and theology.
    (3) From my childhood I was given the gift of spiritual discernment. Even as a boy, when there was an interpretation of tongues, I involuntarily either froze as if confronted by a cobra or was moved to tears of joy to hear the Lord's voice. Unfortunately my discernment revealed to me that roughly 90% of charismatic manifestations are "of the flesh." The authenticity of interpretations of tongues and prophecy was almost invariably accepted uncritically without discernment and it was not acceptable to "make waves" by challenging any of these manifestations. Still, the small percentage that really is genuine is the best thing in modern churchianity! My early experiences of speaking in tongues and "the word of knowledge" include the most electrifying, life-changing, and Christ-exalting experiences of my life; and now several decades later I still draw spiritual and emotional nourishment from my precious memories of those experiences.

    I was basically driven to seminary by doubts arising from inner conflicts with my Pentecostal past and ultimately got my MDiv from Princeton and my doctorate in New Testament, Judaism, and Greco-Roman backgrounds from Harvard. I was a theology professor for 12 years at a Catholic university and then decided to become a United Methodist pastor. I retired in July, 2015. As a pastor, I defended the traditional biblical view of marriage and opposed gay marriage and ordination publicly at our Annual Conferences. This made me unpopular with UMC leadership and the minority of evangelical pastors and laity generally remained silent, fearing the consequences of public opposition. So I rejoice in the decision reached at the recent UMC General Conference to definitively ban same-sex marriage and ordination, a feat achieved because of the large African support of the traditional view of marriage. Now I fear for the fate of my former UMC church amid the bloodbath of a mass progressive exodus and bitter recrimination that is sure to ensue. My church was one of a minority of evangelical UMC churches in a mostly progressive Conference.

    How long I stay and post her remains to be seen. Many evangelicals posting here don't season their penchant for bluster with a modicum of intellectual rigor. Indeed simplistic and inaccurate straw man stereotypes often seem to be created and knocked down with vitriol, so that the actual arguments of opposing Christian perspectives can't seem to gain a fair hearing. A t the same time, I don't suffer fools gladly and must confess that, when I was posting here before I sometimes allowed myself to unwittingly engage in questionable disparagement in protest of receiving the same.
    So this is an experiment for me. It will be interesting to see whether temperatures can be lowered enough to promote meaningful interaction.
    n>Welcome! Thanks for sharing. I hope you'll share from your educational and personal background. I think that what happened in St. Louis was remarkable. Were you there? I followed the events as much as I could... from far away. It'll be interesting to see if God brings about the same sort of powerful work He accomplished there, by bringing errant folks to repentance and returning to the teachings of the Bible. One of my major concerns is how far astray many UMC-related schools have wandered. They need to get back to their biblical roots. I think you and I had some tussles back in June, if I'm not mistaken. I hope that in your absence you did some studying, since your previous stuff was... kinda stinky junk... not much honest scholarship and dealing with the text as it appears. Maybe I'm wrong... but I don't think so...

    .
    Last edited by noemail001; 02-28-19, 10:15 PM.
    Mouser Larry Roy: "yippee ki yay"
    “... see the loonies in their cages… are they not witty… how much amusement they afford… ours is a human world, theirs is a bestial world… " Bedlam

    Comment


    • #3
      Welcom back.
      Originally posted by Berserk View Post
      Unfortunately my discernment revealed to me that roughly 90% of charismatic manifestations are "of the flesh."
      Why was that "unfortunate"?
      Originally posted by Berserk View Post
      How long I stay and post her remains to be seen. Many evangelicals posting here don't season their penchant for bluster with a modicum of intellectual rigor. Indeed simplistic and inaccurate straw man stereotypes often seem to be created and knocked down with vitriol, so that the actual arguments of opposing Christian perspectives can't seem to gain a fair hearing. A t the same time, I don't suffer fools gladly and must confess that, when I was posting here before I sometimes allowed myself to unwittingly engage in questionable disparagement in protest of receiving the same.
      So this is an experiment for me. It will be interesting to see whether temperatures can be lowered enough to promote meaningful interaction.
      How did you bring God's knowledge, wisdom, grace, etc. to others?

      Have you considered that as a consequence of Lk. 6:45 it was God bringing you here to address that practice of "questionable disparagement"? I will testify to the personal changes I have made as a consequence of greater awareness of my own shortcomings. "Thank you Jesus for bringing me to that insufferable troll so that I might see how easily I am provoked and how short I fall in kindness, patience, longsuffering and hope."



      All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

      “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Berserk View Post
        ... It will be interesting to see whether temperatures can be lowered enough to promote meaningful interaction.
        Welcome to CARM Berserk!

        Thanks for sharing your background.

        "Temperature" can also approach absolute zero too ( cold, hard, and immovable ). I hope that you find that sweet spot of meaningful interaction here too.
        "The exact sciences also start from the assumption that in the end it will always be possible to understand nature, even in every new field of experience, but that we make no a priori assumptions about the meaning of the word "understand"."

        Heisenberg
        .....................

        " It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and it is the glory of a king to search out a matter. " ( Proverbs 25:2 )

        Comment


        • #5


          Originally posted by Berserk View Post

          I am returning to post after a long absence and think I should clarify where I am coming from in my posts.
          I was raised in a large Canadian Pentecostal church until age 21. I left my denomination for at least 3 reasons:
          (1) I could no longer accept their doctrine that speaking in tongues is the unique and required evidence for "baptism in the Holy Spirit."
          (2) I could no longer embrace aspects of Pentecostal legalism and their anti-intellectual approach to the Bible and theology.
          (3) From my childhood I was given the gift of spiritual discernment. Even as a boy, when there was an interpretation of tongues, I involuntarily either froze as if confronted by a cobra or was moved to tears of joy to hear the Lord's voice. Unfortunately my discernment revealed to me that roughly 90% of charismatic manifestations are "of the flesh." The authenticity of interpretations of tongues and prophecy was almost invariably accepted uncritically without discernment and it was not acceptable to "make waves" by challenging any of these manifestations. Still, the small percentage that really is genuine is the best thing in modern churchianity! My early experiences of speaking in tongues and "the word of knowledge" include the most electrifying, life-changing, and Christ-exalting experiences of my life; and now several decades later I still draw spiritual and emotional nourishment from my precious memories of those experiences..........
          Curious. Did you pastor in Western NY?

          When I was doing post grad course work at CRDS another student and I had the opportunity to meet with Bishop Kim for 3 hours as part of our UMC history class. As an intuitive individual, I felt blessed to be in the presence of a man so filled with Holy Spirit, and I discovered that there were many other Evangelicals which he placed in his district.

          If you are looking for a denomination that is solidly Evangelical as well as Holy Spirit led, I suggest that you look at the Christian and Missionary Alliance. We are a church that functions as an Acts 1:8 church

          8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”



          MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

          1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

          2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

          3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

          4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







          Comment

          Working...
          X