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Quran confirms biblical scripture as valid.

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  • #76
    And then we have what passes for Islamic witness: God's having 2 right hands, camel urine being great for you, flies having cures for disease on their wings and muddy pools where the sun sets.

    If there wasn't the death penalty and major family, legal and social pressure to prevent people leaving Islam I am sure it would crumble rather rapidly as its adherents left.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Niblo View Post

      My understanding of the Trinity:

      There is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

      These three persons are one God not three gods, because there is one substance of the three, one essence, one nature, one Godhead, one immensity, one eternity.

      Within the Godhead the Father is entirely within the Son and entirely within the Holy Spirit. The Son is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Son. In other words, the three Persons form a single unity, indivisible and permanent. They are not three persons standing side by side, so to speak.

      The Second Person of the Trinity (the 'Divine Logos') is united 'hypostatically' to Christ. This union took place at the moment of his conception. In the 'hypostatic union' each of Yeshua's two natures (divine and human) continue untransformed, unimpaired and unmixed with the other; and this 'union' will never end.

      Yeshua is perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity; true God and true man, of a rational soul and a body; consubstantial with the Father as regards his divinity, consubstantial with us as regards his humanity; like us in all respects except for sin; begotten before the ages from the Father, and in the last days the same born according to his humanity for us and our salvation from the virgin Mary.
      OK, we have God as one Being in three persons. What is your understanding of "persons" as opposed to "Being?"

      Where in the Qur'an do we find a definition of the Trinity Christians believe in refuted?

      Originally posted by Niblo View Post

      Why did I not become a Jew? I disagree with their rejection of Yeshua as Messiah.
      What makes you believe that Jesus is the Messiah other than the Qur'an says so?



      They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by George View Post

        OK, we have God as one Being in three persons. What is your understanding of "persons" as opposed to "Being?"

        Where in the Qur'an do we find a definition of the Trinity Christians believe in refuted?



        What makes you believe that Jesus is the Messiah other than the Qur'an says so?


        And you started off so well. You asked what my problem was, and told you (doctrine of the Trinity). You asked for my understanding of that doctrine, and I told you. It is an accurate description of the doctrine. Your next question ought to have been: And what is it that bothers you about this doctrine...what is it you disagree with? That would have opened the door to discussion...and clarification. All of our chat could have been....would have been.....Bible and Christian based. But you failed to do that.

        I believed that Yeshua is the Messiah long before I ever heard of Islam. I was taught as much in my Baptist Sunday school. If you wish to bring a 'lost sheep' back into the fold stick to the Bible and to Christian teachings. That's what I was brought up on. That's what an effective evangelist does. If you simply wish to prove me wrong about Islam then you are wasting an opportunity. That, of itself, would not eliminate my trinity problem.

        Try again...or else let's agree not to waste each other's time.
        'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.' (Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Niblo View Post

          And you started off so well. You asked what my problem was, and told you (doctrine of the Trinity). You asked for my understanding of that doctrine, and I told you. It is an accurate description of the doctrine. Your next question ought to have been: And what is it that bothers you about this doctrine...what is it you disagree with? That would have opened the door to discussion...and clarification. All of our chat could have been....would have been.....Bible and Christian based. But you failed to do that.
          OK, And what is it that bothers you about this doctrine...what is it you disagree with?

          Where in the Qur'an do we find a definition of the Trinity Christians believe in refuted is a ligitiment question. Do you have an answer? This too, should open the door to discussion.

          You are expecting me to reply like you would reply. I reply as thoughts occur to me.

          Originally posted by Niblo View Post

          I believed that Yeshua is the Messiah long before I ever heard of Islam. I was taught as much in my Baptist Sunday school. If you wish to bring a 'lost sheep' back into the fold stick to the Bible and to Christian teachings. That's what I was brought up on. That's what an effective evangelist does. If you simply wish to prove me wrong about Islam then you are wasting an opportunity. That, of itself, would not eliminate my trinity problem.

          Try again...or else let's agree not to waste each other's time.
          What caused you to believe Jesus is the Messiah? Jews don't believe Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah such as, the Messiah was to build the third Temple; bring peace, and be a warrior king,

          They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Niblo View Post
            Ah. So this what passes for Christian witness in your neck of the woods. You clearly have no desire to convince me that I was wrong to leave your religion. Does your faith mean that little to you? George is doing much better.;
            Obviously you choose ignore and divert rather than address the issues I presented you.

            You clearly have no desire to look at Scripture objectively. To wit:
            Meanwhile, you willfully ignore all the obvious problems with the Qur'an and Islam in general. None are so blind as the willfully blind, sir!

            You asked for Scripture.


            Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
            Joh 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
            Joh 1:3 All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.
            Joh 1:4 Life was in Him, and that life was the light of men.
            Joh 1:5 That light shines in the darkness, yet the darkness did not overcome it.

            Joh 1:9 The true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
            Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was created through Him, yet the world did not recognize Him.
            Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own people did not receive Him.
            Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name,
            Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God.
            Joh 1:14 The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

            Mat 22:41 While the Pharisees were together, Jesus questioned them,
            Mat 22:42 "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose Son is He?" "David's," they told Him.
            Mat 22:43 He asked them, "How is it then that David, inspired by the Spirit, calls Him 'Lord':
            Mat 22:44 The Lord declared to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand until I put Your enemies under Your feet'?
            Mat 22:45 "If David calls Him 'Lord,' how then can the Messiah be his Son?"
            Mat 22:46 No one was able to answer Him at all, and from that day no one dared to question Him anymore.

            Psa 110:1 A Davidic psalm. This is the declaration of the LORD to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool."
            Psa 110:2 The LORD will extend Your mighty scepter from Zion. Rule over Your surrounding enemies.
            Psa 110:3 Your people will volunteer on Your day of battle. In holy splendor, from the womb of the dawn, the dew of Your youth belongs to You.
            Psa 110:4 The LORD has sworn an oath and will not take it back: "Forever, You are a priest like Melchizedek."
            Psa 110:5 The Lord is at Your right hand; He will crush kings on the day of His anger.
            Psa 110:6 He will judge the nations, heaping up corpses; He will crush leaders over the entire world.
            Psa 110:7 He will drink from the brook by the road; therefore, He will lift up His head. [HCSB]
            Deal with it.

            Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

            Comment


            • #81
              How doe we even know that Allah is not deceiving the Muslims, and Mohammed? Mohammed was fooled by Satan into delivering false revelations.

              Allah is "the best of deceivers"... is he not? So how honest are you?


              Let's try this one on for size:

              1. Allah deceives people into thinking that Jesus was crucified, as per this verse and others
              • Surah 4:157 "That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah' - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not."(Yusuf Ali translation)
              2. Allah thus promotes a foundational act of the religion he condemns.

              3. Then Allah teaches Muslims to harshly judge the Christians for believing in the deception that Allah himself perpetrated.

              Surely Allah works in mysterious ways.


              From this we conclude that Allah is a deceiver. This is even stated in the Quran.

              What other deceptive acts has this deceiving Allah committed, and who else has he deceived?

              Comment


              • #82
                The lying, murdering prophet of Islam and his lying, murderous followers. Can there by any lying and thus deception going on, in the cause of Allah?

                As the perfect example for all Muslims to follow, was Muhammad wrong for allowing lying, especially to sanction an assassination?

                "Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him [Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf]?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it," (Hadith Vol. 5, Book 59, #369).


                In the above hadith, Muhammad advocated lying. Is lying acceptable in Islam, especially to justify a murder?

                So, does the god of Islam approve of lying?
                • If Allah does not permit lying, then wasn't Muhammad, the perfect Muslim, wrong?
                • If Mohammed was not wrong, then Allah approves of lying.
                Surely Allah works in mysterious ways. I wonder why Jesus had no men, women and children assassinated or murdered like Mohammed did.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Sane James View Post
                  How doe we even know that Allah is not deceiving the Muslims, and Mohammed? Mohammed was fooled by Satan into delivering false revelations.

                  Allah is "the best of deceivers"... is he not? So how honest are you?


                  Let's try this one on for size:

                  1. Allah deceives people into thinking that Jesus was crucified, as per this verse and others
                  • Surah 4:157 "That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah' - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not."(Yusuf Ali translation)
                  2. Allah thus promotes a foundational act of the religion he condemns.

                  3. Then Allah teaches Muslims to harshly judge the Christians for believing in the deception that Allah himself perpetrated.

                  Surely Allah works in mysterious ways.


                  From this we conclude that Allah is a deceiver. This is even stated in the Quran.

                  What other deceptive acts has this deceiving Allah committed, and who else has he deceived?
                  So Allah provides a look-alike Jesus to be crucified, fooling Jesus disciples, His mother, and all Christians.

                  An all-knowing God would have known what the consequences of his deception would have been.

                  He created the largest religion in the world.

                  And the believers in Christianity were persecuted.

                  If Christianity had not begun, the persecutions of Christians would never have happened.

                  The persecution of Christians is the religious persecution that Christians have endured as a consequence of professing their faith, both historically and in the current era. In the two thousand years of the Christian faith, about 70 million believers, of whom 45.5 million or 65% lived in the twentieth century, have been killed for their faith. (From Wikipedia)

                  And "Allah" caused all of this!!!
                  They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by George View Post

                    OK, And what is it that bothers you about this doctrine...what is it you disagree with?

                    Where in the Qur'an do we find a definition of the Trinity Christians believe in refuted is a ligitiment question. Do you have an answer? This too, should open the door to discussion.

                    You are expecting me to reply like you would reply. I reply as thoughts occur to me.
                    I propose to deal with this matter over three posts.

                    In order to demonstrate that the Qur'an does not support the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary only to consider what it has to say about the nature of Yeshua (radi Allahu 'anhu).

                    Surah Al'Imran:

                    'We relate to you (Muhammad) this revelation, a decisive statement. Truly the likeness of Jesus in the sight of Allāh is that of Adam; He created him from dust, said to him, 'Be', and he was. This is the truth from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt.' (58-60).

                    Seyyed Hossein Nasr writes:

                    'It is reported that these verses were revealed while a Christian delegation from Najrān - one of whom was said to be honored by the Byzantines for his knowledge of religion - was in Madinah. These Christians reportedly argued that since Jesus had no human father, he was truly God's son.

                    'Verse 59 - ''Truly the likeness of Jesus in the sight of Allāh is that of Adam; He created him from dust, said to him, 'Be', and he was'' constitutes one of the central arguments in the Quran against the divinity of Christ. It acknowledges the miraculous nature of his birth, but rejects the implication that this makes him Divine. If God could create Adam, who had neither earthly father nor mother, from dust, he could also create Jesus from the ''blood'' of Mary.' ('The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary').

                    Comment:

                    It is worth noting that Eve had no human father either. What Christian would suggest that this makes her a goddess?

                    Surah Al-Nisa:

                    'People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about Allāh except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of Allāh, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So, believe in Allāh and His messengers and do not speak of a three - stop (this), that is better for you - Allāh is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust. The Messiah would never disdain to be a servant of Allāh, nor would the angels who are close to Him.' (171-172).

                    Comment:

                    The 'word' directed to Mary (radi Allahu 'anha) was 'Be' ('kun'). This is the word by which Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) creates all things: '.... He is the All Knowing Creator: when He wills something to be, His way is to say, ''Be'', and it is! So glory be to Him in whose Hand lies control over all things. It is to Him that you will all be brought back.' (Ya Sin: 81-83).

                    The words: 'a spirit from Him' refer to Yeshua's created spirit (soul); one that was pure; free from any taint of sin or corruption, as all souls are at the moment of conception.

                    This surah makes it clear that Yeshua is not divine.

                    Surah Al-Ma'ida:

                    'Those who say: ''Allāh is the Messiah, the son of Mary,'' are defying the truth. Say: ''If it had been Allāh's will, could anyone have prevented Him from destroying the Messiah, son of Mary, together with his mother and everyone else on earth? Control of the heavens and earth and all that is between them belongs to Allāh: He creates whatever He will**. Allāh has power over everything.' (17); and again: 'Those who say: ''Allāh is the Messiah, son of Mary,'' have defied Allāh. The Messiah himself said: ''Children of Israel, worship Allāh, my Lord and your Lord.'' If anyone associates others with Allāh, Allāh will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers.' (72).

                    ** This includes His creation of Yeshua without a father.

                    Comment:

                    Take note of the words: 'Say: ''If it had been Allāh's will, could anyone have prevented Him from destroying the Messiah.'''?

                    As you know, Trinitarians claim that the Messiah possesses two natures, one of which is divine. In what way could his (alleged) divine nature be destroyed? Are we to believe that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) can annililate Himself?

                    The Surah makes it abundantly clear: Those who attribute divinity to Yeshua; who make him a partner to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) are in error. They are guilty of shirk.

                    Geoffrey Parrinder writes:

                    'Especially grave in Muslim eyes is shirk, ''association'' of anyone with God, giving God a partner, and generally anything that is in opposition to Quranic monotheism. Shirk is denounced in many verses of the Qur'ān.' ('Jesus in the Qur'an - Makers of the Muslim World').
                    'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.' (Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Surah Al-Ma'ida:

                      'When Allāh says: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to people, ''Take me and my mother as two gods alongside God''?' he will say: ''May You be exalted! I would never say what I had no right to say - if I had said such a thing You would have known it: You know all that is within me, though I do not know what is within You, You alone have full knowledge of things unseen - I told them only what You commanded me to: ''Worship Allāh, my Lord and your Lord.'' I was a witness over them during my time among them. Ever since You took my soul, You alone have been the watcher over them: You are witness to all things and if You punish them, they are Your servants; if You forgive them, You are the Almighty, the Wise.''' (116-118).

                      These verses are prophetic. The conversation between the Exalted and Yeshua takes place on the Day of Judgement; when the prophets, in common with everyone else, are asked give an account of their lives.

                      Yeshua is asked to account for the fact that certain Christians have exaggerated his spiritual station, and attributed divinity to him. Yeshua denies ever giving permission for this.

                      Seyyed Hossein Nasr writes:

                      'Jesus indicates that he bears no responsibility for such exaggerations of his or his mother's status, but rather than directly denying that he commanded his followers to take him and his mother as gods apart from God, he demonstrates an attitude of proper comportment before God by offering a response of perfect humility, saying he had no right to utter such a thing.' ('The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary').

                      Referring to Mary, Nasr writes:

                      'Although traditional Christian doctrine does not view Mary as a member of the Trinity, the Quran may here be referring to certain Orthodox and Roman Catholic doctrines regarding Mary, for example, her identification as Theotokos, or ''Mother of God,'' which is a doctrinal extension of the Christian belief in Christ's divinity....the Quran may be criticizing not Christian doctrinal formulations concerning Mary, but rather popular Christian exaggerations of Mary's status that approach divinization.'

                      Geoffrey Parrinder writes:

                      'In Arabia there were in the early centuries some (called Antidicomarianites) who protested against the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary. But there were cults, some semi-pagan, which exalted Mary in unseemly fashion. The Collyridians, an Arabian female sect of the fourth century, offered to Mary cakes of bread (collyrida), as they had done to the great earth mother in pagan times.

                      'Epiphanius, who opposed this heresy, said that the Trinity must be worshipped, but Mary must not be worshipped. The Qur'ān may well be directed against this heresy. It gives its support against Mariolatry, while at the same time it recognizes the importance of Mary as the vessel chosen by God for the birth of his Christ.' ('Jesus in the Qur'an - Makers of the Muslim World').

                      Louay Fatoohi writes:

                      'I should stress another important point. A common mistake in studying the Qur'an's discussion of Christian beliefs, including the doctrine of the Trinity, is to suggest that the Qur'an talks about the New Testament only, or simply misunderstands it. The Qur'an rejects particular Christian beliefs, regardless of whether they are found in the New Testament or not. For instance, the Qur'an rejects the worship of Mary, even though Mariolatry is not a New Testament doctrine. The New Testament does not have any special scriptural value outside mainstream Christianity, which was itself defined in the first few centuries after Jesus. The Qur'an is interested in clarifying its positions on doctrines that Christians hold, regardless of the origin of those doctrines. The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger before whom similar messengers passed away, and his mother was a saintly woman.' ('Jesus The Muslim Prophet: History Speaks of a Human Messiah Not a Divine Christ').


                      Surah Al-Ikhlas:

                      'Say: ''He is Allāh the One, Allāh the eternal. He begot no one nor was He begotten. No one is comparable to Him.''' (1-4).

                      From the Nicene Creed:

                      'I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten not made....'

                      Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) makes clear that He has begotten no one. Nor was He begotten. This is a clear denial of the Nicene Creed, and of the Trinity.

                      Concerning the Oneness of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla):

                      Geoffrey Parrinder writes: 'The Qur'ān denies Christian heresies of Adoption, Patripassianism, and Mariolatry. But it affirms the Unity, which is at the basis of trinitarian doctrine.' ('Jesus in the Qur'an (Makers of the Muslim World').

                      Pinder is correct to say that the Qur'an denies notions of Adoption, Patripassianism, and Mariolatry; but he is quite wrong to suggest that it: 'affirms the Unity, which is at the basis of trinitarian doctrine.' It most certainly does not.

                      Louay Fatoohi writes: 'Under pressure to reconcile contradictory statements in the New Testament, Christian theologians work hard to stress that the concepts of divine oneness and unity are one and the same. The Qur'an rejects this equation, as logic does. The God of the Qur'an is one, not united." ('Jesus The Muslim Prophet: History Speaks of a Human Messiah Not a Divine Christ').

                      This from Mark:

                      'And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.' (12: 28-29; KJV).

                      'Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Eḥad'. One Lord. One God. This is tawḥīd.

                      'Lā ʾilāha ʾillā llāh' (There is no god but God). One Lord. One God. This, too, is tawḥīd.

                      The entirety of Islamic teaching rests on the principle of tawḥīd, meaning 'oneness'. This is Islam's most fundament concept: Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) is One (Al-'Aḥad) and Single (Al-Wāḥid).

                      The word 'trinity' is just another way of saying 'tri-unity'; the unity of three persons that is said to exist within the Godhead. In the Trinitarian Godhead there is not one Lord, but three. We can see this very clearly in the following song:

                      'God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit, three in one. God the Father loves me so, Gave His Word so I would know. God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit three in one.

                      'Three in one and one in three, God the Son, He died for me. For my sins His blood He gave, then He rose up from the grave. Three in one and one in three, God the Son He died for me.

                      'Three in one and one and one in three, God the Spirit lives in me. Day by day and hour by hour- Helps me witness by His power. Three in one and one in three, God the Spirit lives in me.' (Produced for children by the CEF Press).

                      Search all you like, you will find nothing in the Qur'an, and nothing in the 'aḥādīth, to support the notion that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) is a trinity (three in one and one in three).
                      'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.' (Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.....And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.....' (John 1: verses 1 and 14: KJV).

                        The Church teaches that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) is 'absolutely immutable'; that in Him there can be no change whatsoever. Not to the slightest degree. This is because He is pure spirit, pure actuality, with no potential for change. Here lies the first of my problems with the doctrine of the Trinity:

                        How can the 'Second Person of the Trinity' - pure spirit, pure actuality, with no potential for change (none whatsoever) - become flesh (which is forever subject to change) without violating the Exalted's immutability; without a change to His very nature?


                        And here is the second:

                        Thomas Aquinas writes: 'All confess that God is omnipotent; but it seems difficult to explain in what His omnipotence precisely consists: for there may be doubt as to the precise meaning of the word 'all' when we say that God can do all things. If, however, we consider the matter aright, since power is said in reference to possible things, this phrase, "God can do all things," is rightly understood to mean that God can do all things that are possible; and for this reason He is said to be omnipotent.

                        'Therefore, that which implies being and non-being at the same time is repugnant to the idea of an absolutely possible thing, within the scope of the divine omnipotence. For such cannot come under the divine omnipotence, not because of any defect in the power of God, but because it has not the nature of a feasible or possible thing. Therefore, everything that does not imply a contradiction in terms is numbered amongst those possible things, in respect of which God is called omnipotent: whereas whatever implies contradiction does not come within the scope of divine omnipotence, because it cannot have the aspect of possibility.' (Summa Theologica: Part 1; Question 25; Article 3).

                        There are certain 'intrinsically impossible' things that even an omnipotent God cannot do.

                        First, He cannot do anything that would contradict his nature. For example, He cannot sin, since to sin: 'Is to fall short of a perfect action; hence to be able to sin is to be able to fall short in action, which is repugnant to omnipotence.' (Summa Theologica: Part 1; Question 25; Article 3).

                        Second, He cannot do anything that would be logically impossible. He cannot, for example, create a three-sided triangle; or a man who is, at the same time, a donkey; for in the statement that a man is a donkey 'the predicate is altogether incompatible with the subject.' (Summa Theologica: Part 1; Question 25; Article 3).

                        C. S. Lewis writes: '(God's) Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say "God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it," you have not succeeded in saying anything about God.

                        'Meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words "God can." It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.' (The Problem of Pain).

                        Note the words: 'It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; NOT BECAUSE HIS POWER MEETS AN OBSTACLE, BUT BECAUSE NONSENSE REMAINS NONSENSE EVEN WHEN WE TALK IT ABOUT GOD.'

                        I have said before: the Church teaches that Yeshua is 'wholly man and wholly God'; and claims that this condition is ongoing, and permanent.

                        There is another way of expressing this teaching: Yeshua is both wholly man and wholly not-man (God, after all, is not a man); and he will always be both wholly man and wholly not-man.

                        Look again at Aquinas' words: 'that which implies being and non-being at the same time is repugnant to the idea of an absolutely possible thing, within the scope of the divine omnipotence.'

                        Expressed somewhat differently: That which is 'A' and 'not-A' at one and the same time is..'repugnant to the idea of an absolutely possible thing, within the scope of the divine omnipotence.'

                        This is the law of non-contradiction.

                        The Persian philosopher, Avicenna, said: 'Anyone who denies the law of non-contradiction should be beaten and burned until he admits that to be beaten is not the same as not to be beaten, and to be burned is not the same as not to be burned.' (Metaphysics, I.8; commenting on Aristotle).

                        If we define 'man' as a member of the species homo-sapiens, with various physical and mental limitations, then we distinguish 'man' from 'God'. If Yeshua is 'wholly man' then he cannot possibly be wholly not-man ('God') at one and the same time and in the same relationship to what defines a man. If we insist that he is indeed both 'man' and 'God' - and if we preserve the integrity of the definitions of these terms - then we make him a logical contradiction.

                        The thing about logical contradictions is that they are never true. They are always false, because the real world never satisfies both a statement and its negation at the same time, simply by the meaning of negation.

                        There are those who argue that 'logic' is entirely man-made; and that the 'laws of logic' do not apply to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).

                        I would answer that these laws are necessary truths - that is to say, they are true not only in the world we know, but in every possible world. Indeed, they were true when there were no worlds; when nothing existed at all but Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) Himself.

                        James N. Anderson and Greg Welty write: 'Just whose thoughts are the laws of logic? There are no more thoughts without minds than there is smoke without fire. Our first inclination might be to say that they must be our thoughts. After all, we're the ones who think about the laws of logic and apply them to our other thoughts. But the fact that we have thoughts about the laws of logic no more entails that the laws of logic are just our thoughts than the fact that we have thoughts about the Eiffel Tower entails that the Eiffel Tower is merely a product of our minds.

                        'In any case, the laws of logic couldn't be our thoughts - or the thoughts of any other contingent being for that matter - for as we've seen, the laws of logic exist necessarily if they exist at all.

                        'If the laws of logic are necessarily existent thoughts, they can only be the thoughts of a necessarily existent mind. It doesn't require much further thought to see whose mind this must be. A necessarily existent mind must be the mind of a necessarily existent person. And this, as Aquinas would say, everyone understands to be God.' ('The Lord of Non-Contradiction: An Argument for God from Logic').

                        The laws of logic arise from the mind of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla), and are part of His very nature. And just as He cannot violate His own nature, neither can He violate His laws. That is why: 'It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.' (The Problem of Pain).

                        Conclusion:

                        Darrel Pack writes: 'It is a deadly, demonic deception that Islam presents a story about Jesus, yet strips him of the title Savior. The Quran has much to say about the nature of (the Messiah). The core message in this regard is that he is neither God nor the Son of God. He is a man of great spiritual significance, but only a man. Quranic descriptions of (the Messiah) included some very elevated titles but these titles are all interpreted downward and become little more than honorifics.' ('The Quranic Jesus: A Demonic Deception: An Evangelical Assessment of Jesus in the Quran; Book 1').

                        Dale Suggs writes: 'The Quran clearly denies the concept of ''Father, Son, and Holy Spirit''. So the Trinity is proven many times in Scripture but the Quran denies it in its entirety. Once again I have to ask, how can God write one book for the Christian and another for the Muslim with totally different viewpoints? The answer is, He would not!....Jesus is NOT in the Quran! ' ('Jesus is NOT in the Quran!; Volume 1').

                        A Muslim would reply that Yeshua (radi Allahu 'anhu) - the historical Yeshua - most certainly does exist in the Qur’an; but that you will search in vain to find him in the doctrine of the Trinity.
                        Last edited by Niblo; 11-18-17, 07:25 AM.
                        'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.' (Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by George View Post
                          So Allah provides a look-alike Jesus to be crucified
                          Concerning Al-Nisa: 155-158: 'And so for breaking their pledge, for rejecting Allāh's revelations, for unjustly killing their prophets, for saying: ''Our minds are closed'' - No! Allāh has sealed them in their disbelief, so they believe only a little - and because they disbelieved and uttered a terrible slander against Mary, and said: ''We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allāh.'' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him - Allāh raised him up to Himself. Allāh is almighty and wise.'

                          Where does it say that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) provided a 'look-alike Jesus'?

                          The words: 'it was made to appear like that to them' are true. But the one who started this deception was not Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)...it was Paul; writing before any of the gospels; and centuries before Al-Nisa. By the time this surah was revealed the notion of a crucified Yeshua was a matter of Christian doctrine. The Qur'an is rejecting that doctrine.

                          I shall be out of the country from this evening until the first week of December - God willing. I will not be taking my laptop with me, and will not be going on-line. There really is no need to rush any response to any of my posts.

                          Have a nice day.
                          'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.' (Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Niblo View Post
                            'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.....And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.....' (John 1: verses 1 and 14: KJV).
                            Then you take over 25 paragraphs quote mining the words of men trying to disprove the words of God!

                            Sir, from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22 the Son of God is revealed and God is revealed as a Triunity. You obviously cannot accept that an infinite. God is beyond the ability of finite man to fully explain and comprehend.

                            Muhammad's Allah can not possibly be the great I AM of the Bible ... the same Bible Muhammad validates as it existed in his time!

                            Muhammad's Messiah cannot be the Messiah of the Bible ... the same Bible Muhammad validates as it existed in his time!

                            Muhammad's "Isa" cannot possibly be the Jesus of the Bible ... the same Bible Muhammad validates as it existed in his time!

                            Why would any sane person trust their eternal destiny to a self confessed liar?
                            Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Niblo View Post

                              Concerning Al-Nisa: 155-158: 'And so for breaking their pledge, for rejecting Allāh's revelations, for unjustly killing their prophets, for saying: ''Our minds are closed'' - No! Allāh has sealed them in their disbelief, so they believe only a little - and because they disbelieved and uttered a terrible slander against Mary, and said: ''We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allāh.'' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him - Allāh raised him up to Himself. Allāh is almighty and wise.'

                              Where does it say that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) provided a 'look-alike Jesus'?

                              The words: 'it was made to appear like that to them' are true. But the one who started this deception was not Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)...it was Paul; writing before any of the gospels; and centuries before Al-Nisa. By the time this surah was revealed the notion of a crucified Yeshua was a matter of Christian doctrine. The Qur'an is rejecting that doctrine.

                              I shall be out of the country from this evening until the first week of December - God willing. I will not be taking my laptop with me, and will not be going on-line. There really is no need to rush any response to any of my posts.

                              Have a nice day.
                              About 95% fof the dozens and dozens of Muslims I have spoken to over the years have said that Jesus face was put on someone else and that person was crucified instead of Jesus. Like the following interpretations:
                              Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar and for their saying: We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God. And they killed him not, nor they crucified him. Rather, a likeness to him of another was shown to them. And, truly, those who were at variance in it are in uncertainty about it. There is no knowledge with them about it but they are pursuing an opinion. And they for certain killed him not.
                              Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali And for their saying, "Surely we killed the Masih, Isa son of Maryam, (The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary) the Messenger of Allah." And in no way did they kill him, and in no way did they crucify him, but a resemblance of him was presented to them (i.e. the matter was made obscure for them through mutual resemblance). And surely the ones who differed about him are indeed in doubt about him. (Or: it, "that") In no way do they have any knowledge about him except the close following of surmise, and in no way did they kill him of a certainty.
                              Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri And (also) because of their uttering (the boastful claim): ‘We (have) killed Allah’s Messenger, the Messiah, ‘Isa, the son of Maryam (Jesus, the son of Mary),’ whereas they neither killed nor crucified him. But (in truth) someone was made the like (of ‘Isa—Jesus) in their view. But those who disagree about him have surely fallen prey to doubt (concerning) this (murder). They know nothing (what the truth is) except (that they are) following fancy. And they certainly did not murder ‘Isa (Jesus).
                              There are others like these.

                              You said: . "But the one who started this deception was not Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)...it was Paul; writing before any of the gospels; and centuries before Al-Nisa"

                              How did Paul start this deception? What are you referring to?

                              Keep in mind that the Gospel was preached orally for a while.

                              There is a creed dated from 3 to 8 years after Jesus' crucifixion that speaks of Jesus' death and resurrection, before Paul.
                              They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Niblo View Post

                                I propose to deal with this matter over three posts.

                                In order to demonstrate that the Qur'an does not support the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary only to consider what it has to say about the nature of Yeshua (radi Allahu 'anhu).

                                Surah Al'Imran:

                                'We relate to you (Muhammad) this revelation, a decisive statement. Truly the likeness of Jesus in the sight of Allāh is that of Adam; He created him from dust, said to him, 'Be', and he was. This is the truth from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt.' (58-60).

                                Seyyed Hossein Nasr writes:

                                'It is reported that these verses were revealed while a Christian delegation from Najrān - one of whom was said to be honored by the Byzantines for his knowledge of religion - was in Madinah. These Christians reportedly argued that since Jesus had no human father, he was truly God's son.

                                'Verse 59 - ''Truly the likeness of Jesus in the sight of Allāh is that of Adam; He created him from dust, said to him, 'Be', and he was'' constitutes one of the central arguments in the Quran against the divinity of Christ. It acknowledges the miraculous nature of his birth, but rejects the implication that this makes him Divine. If God could create Adam, who had neither earthly father nor mother, from dust, he could also create Jesus from the ''blood'' of Mary.' ('The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary').

                                Comment:

                                It is worth noting that Eve had no human father either. What Christian would suggest that this makes her a goddess?

                                Surah Al-Nisa:

                                'People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about Allāh except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of Allāh, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So, believe in Allāh and His messengers and do not speak of a three - stop (this), that is better for you - Allāh is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust. The Messiah would never disdain to be a servant of Allāh, nor would the angels who are close to Him.' (171-172).

                                Comment:

                                The 'word' directed to Mary (radi Allahu 'anha) was 'Be' ('kun'). This is the word by which Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) creates all things: '.... He is the All Knowing Creator: when He wills something to be, His way is to say, ''Be'', and it is! So glory be to Him in whose Hand lies control over all things. It is to Him that you will all be brought back.' (Ya Sin: 81-83).

                                The words: 'a spirit from Him' refer to Yeshua's created spirit (soul); one that was pure; free from any taint of sin or corruption, as all souls are at the moment of conception.

                                This surah makes it clear that Yeshua is not divine.

                                Surah Al-Ma'ida:

                                'Those who say: ''Allāh is the Messiah, the son of Mary,'' are defying the truth. Say: ''If it had been Allāh's will, could anyone have prevented Him from destroying the Messiah, son of Mary, together with his mother and everyone else on earth? Control of the heavens and earth and all that is between them belongs to Allāh: He creates whatever He will**. Allāh has power over everything.' (17); and again: 'Those who say: ''Allāh is the Messiah, son of Mary,'' have defied Allāh. The Messiah himself said: ''Children of Israel, worship Allāh, my Lord and your Lord.'' If anyone associates others with Allāh, Allāh will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers.' (72).

                                ** This includes His creation of Yeshua without a father.

                                Comment:

                                Take note of the words: 'Say: ''If it had been Allāh's will, could anyone have prevented Him from destroying the Messiah.'''?

                                As you know, Trinitarians claim that the Messiah possesses two natures, one of which is divine. In what way could his (alleged) divine nature be destroyed? Are we to believe that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) can annililate Himself?

                                The Surah makes it abundantly clear: Those who attribute divinity to Yeshua; who make him a partner to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) are in error. They are guilty of shirk.

                                Geoffrey Parrinder writes:

                                'Especially grave in Muslim eyes is shirk, ''association'' of anyone with God, giving God a partner, and generally anything that is in opposition to Quranic monotheism. Shirk is denounced in many verses of the Qur'ān.' ('Jesus in the Qur'an - Makers of the Muslim World').
                                Jesus is not in the likeness of Adam. Adam was created from dust; Jesus was conceived.

                                Where in the Qur'an do we see the Trinity refuted as Christians believe it to be -- the Father, His Word and His Holy Spirit? Nowhere at all.

                                God did not die; the Son of God died. God did not cease to exist. Jesus was separated from the Father and Holy Spirit for a time. It was only His human nature that was separated from God, not His divine nature. God did not “die.”

                                Christians are not guilty of shirk. God has not partners, if you mean another God besides God.

                                The author of the Qur'an did not address the incarnation. I think your Allah had never heard of the incarnation; otherwise he would not have said that Jesus could not be God because He had to eat food.

                                It appears your Allah believed Christians believed Jesus was produced by sex between God and Mary. This is what my Qur'an implies.

                                The truth is that - exalted be the Majesty of our Lord - HE has taken unto Himself neither wife nor son, S. 72:3 Sher Ali

                                And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour. Surah 21.26

                                ! How could He have a son when He has no consort, and He (Himself) created everything, and He is the Knower of all things. S. 6:100-101 Shakir

                                Your Allah said he needed a wife in order to have a son.

                                Commentary in my Qur'an:

                                "Begetting a son is a physical act depending on the needs of men's animal nature. God Most High is independent of all needs, and it is derogatory to Him to attribute such an act to Him. It is merely a relic of pagan and anthropomorphic materialist superstitions."

                                "It is a derogation from the glory of God in fact it is blasphemy to say that God begets sons, like a man or an animal. The Christian doctrine is here emphatically repudiated. If words have any meaning, it would mean an attribution to God of a material nature, and of the lower animal functions of sex."

                                Jesus' conception took place by the power of God, not by sex. All of this tells me that your Allah had never heard of the incarnation, thus he is not all-knowning, thus he is not the Creator, the God of Israel or the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or the God of the New Testament.
                                They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

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