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Ask me anything about Islam and I'll try to answer it as well as I can.

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  • Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post

    Maybe. But the followers of Jesus did a poor job of even orally preserving his brief 3˝ year long history before they were written down. That's why we have different versions of the different events in Jesus' life in each gospel.
    Some writers included more details. The Qur'an also has different dialog of the same event. Compare Surah 20:9-24 with Surah 27:7-14 and Surah 28:29-33

    Compare Surah 20:38-40 with Surah 28:7,11-13

    Compare Surah 2:58-59 with Surah 7:161-162

    Compare Surah 20:65-73 with Surah 26:41-52 and 7:111-126

    Compare Surah 11:77-83 with Surah 15:61-75 and Surah 29:32-34, as well as Surah 26:160-175 with Surah 27:54-58 and 29:28-30

    Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post


    John even admits people didn't write down everything Jesus did because the books written about it would take up too much space!

    I could go on and on about the textual discrepancies in the Bible but I'll save it for another thread.
    What was included in John was all we needed to know.

    Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post


    but the textual source of your claim is the bible. And the bible has been proven to contain distortions and forgeries that even knowledgeable Christians admit.
    I answered this charge in my post #223.

    Most variants are spelling errors and word order which do not affect the meaning. No variants affects Christian doctrine. Even Bart Ehrman admit this.

    They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

    Comment


    • Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post

      The "Gospel" the Quran speaks of are the direct words of Jesus, that the bible says are from God.

      For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father who sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak. (John 12:49)
      I don't think so, Scorpion.

      Jesus said in His own words that He would die and rise from dead and Jesus said He was the Son of God and your Allah denies both.

      They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

      Comment


      • Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post
        Ask about the contents of the Koran, Islamic beliefs, prophets etc. If youre making claims, please cite verse numbers, sources and so on.

        I'm not going to discuss things back and forth. But If you have a follow up question, please ask.
        Why are abrogated verses still in the Qur'an? If they are abrogated they are no longer Allah's instructions for men today. To leave them in the Qur'an after they have been replaced by something better is to lie about what Allah now requires of his followers..

        Comment


        • Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post
          but the textual source of your claim is the bible. And the bible has been proven to contain distortions and forgeries that even knowledgeable Christians admit.
          So then was Muhammad being deceitful when he validated the Scriptures as they existed in his time?

          Or is it that he just didn't know what he was talking about?

          Tell us oh great wise one.

          Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

          Comment


          • Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post

            You simply posted your interpretation of certain events and statements -- that events during uthman's rule somehow prove the Quran was changed over time.
            I did not claim that the Quran was changed over time. It is clear that from the very beginning different hearers of Mohammed remembered differently what he had said, and recited his suras differently. When Uthman version that was to become uniform throughout Islam, his scribes rejected all but one extant variant of verses with multiple extant versions. I am not claiming that Uthman changed the original Qur'an, but that He reduced the Qur'an to one version that he intended to be internally consistent. He did not necessarily change a single version that was available at the time, but he reduced the available versions down to one version.

            But we don't know whether he chose the correct versions of verses, or whether he missed including verses. Contemporaries of Uthman claimed that his version was incorrect. The religious instructions of the Qur'an seem to have been of secondary importance for early followers compared to the excuses it supplied them for gaining status, using violence against enemies and accumulating wealth and sexual partners. Those who were sufficiently pious to contend for the pure revelation, as they believed it to be, were outnumbered by the "secondary importance" faction and the leader authorised to legislate how the wealth and women should be distributed.





            So why didn't Muslims opposed to Uthman produce an alternate Quran to challenge uthman's standard version??
            Contemporaries of Uthman claimed that his version was incorrect. The religious instructions of the Qur'an seem to have been of secondary importance for early followers compared to the excuses it supplied them for gaining status, using violence against enemies and accumulating wealth and sexual partners. Those who were sufficiently pious to contend for the pure revelation, as they believed it to be, were outnumbered by the "secondary importance" faction and the leader authorised to legislate how the wealth and women should be distributed. Those who had alternative versions had them confiscated and burned. Their absence of other versions would not prove they never existed, if they were destroyed by Uthman. Your question assumes something that is moot.

            It isn't false.
            Any version that had pronounciations that may have led to confusion or distortion of the original meanings was problematic. That's why they had to be gotten rid of and a standardised version that retained the original pronounciation introduced.
            The original versions, did not have vowels, so your argument that versions as written presented mispronunciations, and not material variations of meaning, seems spurious. But maybe you could give an example of a written version of a verse showing a mispronunciation which the standardised version clarified.


            If only Peter or John produced a standardised gospel recording the exact words of Jesus and his life events.
            You don't understand the difference between the Bible and the Quran. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees - "You search the scriptures because you think that in THEM you will find eonous life, but THEY speak of ME, and you will not come to ME that you may have life." The Christian scriptures are given to lead us to Jesus Christ and to begin a relationship with Someone who is alive and present with us today by His Spirit, who speaks to us and walks with us. We have a two-way relationship with the Person the Bible points to.

            Mohammedans have a one-way relationship with a book, the Qur'an, and experience no direct communication with Mohammed, who is dead. You, as a Mohammedan, are falsely equating your relationship with your book to our relationship with our book. It is a false equivalence. Since Jesus taught during His life, and Jesus was still alive to instruct his disciples who wrote the gospels, He was quite entitled to reword His own original teaching as He supervised the writing of their books, just as any lecturer may express the SAME IDEAS to students at later dates, while using different words each time. Different witnesses describing the same events in different words and including different details, is expected of honest witnesses. The evangelists did not need to have the exact same words as each other confirmed by the Spirit of Jesus to write about the SAME events, and to present the SAME ideas as one another. If their accounts were all exactly the same, there would be suspicions of deliberate collusion between the witnesses to avoid any semblance of disagreement. All apparent disagreements are logically reconcilable. When we come to Him today through hearing the message of the Bible, we begin a relationship with a living Person the Bible led us to, who teaches the same ideas to us, unless we are merely Bible-followers like the Mohammedans are Qur'an followers. Mere Bible followers are no more spiritual than Mohammedan Qur'an followers..





            Youre lying about me as well as the 3 conditions for lying.
            I told you lying about the Quran is a grave sin. It does not fall under the category of "settling disputes between brithers". One could have lied to make peace between 2 quarrelling brothers over, say, a private dispute... but NOT to distort the Quran and affect the entire religion.
            There is nothing in the hadith that restricts the lying to settle disputes from lying to settle disputes about the Qur'an.




            Maybe. But the followers of Jesus did a poor job of even orally preserving his brief 3˝ year long history before they were written down. That's why we have different versions of the different events in Jesus' life in each gospel.
            I have dealt with this in an answer to an earlier question in this post.

            John even admits people didn't write down everything Jesus did because the books written about it would take up too much space!
            Do you think this claim is false? How many pages would it take to present a full and exhaustively detailed account of everything that you did and said in a forty-two month period?


            I could go on and on about the textual discrepancies in the Bible but I'll save it for another thread.
            Individuals copying text from one page to another make mistakes. God never promised to prevent incorrect copies of the original form of His message. He promised to preserve His message. Despite their being many incorrect copies of the original form of His message, we still also have His message conveyed, even in many of the versions that diverge in form from the original form of His message . Variations in form do not equate to a change in message.


            ....but the textual source of your claim is the bible. And the bible has been proven to contain distortions and forgeries that even knowledgeable Christians admit.
            The Bible led me the Jesus. There are MANY Bible versions (multiple translations into multiple languages), but the MESSAGE about who JESUS is, is uniform in most of them. Yes, there may be also fraudulent translations and even versions in Greek the fraudulently paint Jesus to be other than what He taught the original disciples He is. Counterfeits do not delegitimise the genuine items they mimic.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Akriboo View Post
              Youre lying about me as well as the 3 conditions for lying.
              I told you lying about the Quran is a grave sin. It does not fall under the category of "settling disputes between brithers". One could have lied to make peace between 2 quarrelling brothers over, say, a private dispute... but NOT to distort the Quran and affect the entire religion.
              There is nothing in the hadith that restricts the lying to settle disputes from lying to settle disputes about the Qur'an.

              .
              Or in order to further the cause of Islam! Muhammad ordered his followers to lie in order to be able to murder poets [both men and women] who had merely insulted him!!! And Muhammad is THE EXEMPLAR for all Muslims!! His words and his deeds are to be emulated!!! Then too there's the [not so little] matter of 'war is deceit and dar al Islam vs dar al harb! Islam is mandated to be at war with all that is not Islam or willingly submitting to Islam and will be until there is only dar al Islam and dar al harb is no more!!

              Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

              Comment


              • Originally posted by George View Post

                I don't think so, Scorpion.

                Jesus said in His own words that He would die and rise from dead and Jesus said He was the Son of God and your Allah denies both.
                When Jesus said he will die, he was not predicting his ‘death’ but rather he was expecting death as his enemies (the Jews), who were out to get rid of him, are closing in on him. Anyone in his position can expect death to come.

                When Jesus said he will be raised 3 days after he ‘died’, he was making a direct reference to Hosea 6:2 which stated that after the earthly death, God will raise us on the third day, that is, the Day of Resurrection. Some scholars even believed that the ‘third day’ is not a reference to the actual 3 days, but a reference which mean ‘in a short time’ like saying ‘I will be ready in a second’ which does not mean you will be ready exactly in 1 second but it means you will be ready very soon.

                And when did Jesus ever claim he was the Son of God, that is, God the Son ??

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Akriboo View Post

                  Why are abrogated verses still in the Qur'an? If they are abrogated they are no longer Allah's instructions for men today. To leave them in the Qur'an after they have been replaced by something better is to lie about what Allah now requires of his followers..
                  What abrogated verses in the Quran are you referring to ??

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post

                    When Jesus said he will die, he was not predicting his ‘death’ but rather he was expecting death as his enemies (the Jews), who were out to get rid of him, are closing in on him. Anyone in his position can expect death to come.

                    When Jesus said he will be raised 3 days after he ‘died’, he was making a direct reference to Hosea 6:2 which stated that after the earthly death, God will raise us on the third day, that is, the Day of Resurrection. Some scholars even believed that the ‘third day’ is not a reference to the actual 3 days, but a reference which mean ‘in a short time’ like saying ‘I will be ready in a second’ which does not mean you will be ready exactly in 1 second but it means you will be ready very soon.

                    And when did Jesus ever claim he was the Son of God, that is, God the Son ??
                    Are you a Muslim?

                    They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post

                      John even admits people didn't write down everything Jesus did because the books written about it would take up too much space!
                      This is what John said:

                      30 "Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of His disciples that are not written in this book. 31 But these are written so that you may believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God,[f] and by believing you may have life in His name."

                      How many more signs and miracles do you need to read?

                      They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                        When Jesus said he will die, he was not predicting his ‘death’ but rather he was expecting death as his enemies (the Jews), who were out to get rid of him, are closing in on him. Anyone in his position can expect death to come.
                        Really?
                        Mat 16:21 From then on Jesus began to point out to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders, chief priests, and scribes, be killed, and be raised the third day.[HCSB]
                        Not only is Jesus specifically predicting His death here, He is emphasizing the absolute necessity of His death and that He MUST go up to Jerusalem and suffer many thing [false accusations, mocked, spit upon, a scourging almost to the point of death, crucifixion]. And, knowing all this He still went!!
                        Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                          What abrogated verses in the Quran are you referring to ??
                          A brief summation .... Which specific passages are abrogated will vary among the Islamic Scholars. But generally speaking conflicting [self contradictions] passages are reconciled by the newer [so called] revelation abrogating the earlier one which is contradicted. One thing is for sure, the Satanic verses were really abrogated since they were obliterated from Qur'an.

                          I would second George's question ...are you a Muslim? And, if yes, by birth or by conversion?
                          Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post

                            What abrogated verses in the Quran are you referring to ??
                            Here are some verses accepted as abrogated, and the verses that replace them. https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_A...n_the_Qur%27an Other scholars such as Ibn Salama identified a lot more... up to 238 verses.
                            Last edited by Akriboo; 12-09-18, 06:01 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Trucker View Post

                              Really?

                              Not only is Jesus specifically predicting His death here, He is emphasizing the absolute necessity of His death and that He MUST go up to Jerusalem and suffer many thing [false accusations, mocked, spit upon, a scourging almost to the point of death, crucifixion]. And, knowing all this He still went!!
                              Yes, really ! Many, if not all, prophets before Jesus suffered and some were killed too. Surely, you knew that. Having to suffer and risk being killed is what a prophet can expect when carrying the message of God. Jesus said earlier – “Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you” – Matthew 5:12. In other words, Jesus was telling his disciples, do not grieve on the sufferings he was going through, as like him, the prophets before him was also persecuted and suffered for carrying and bringing the Message of God to the people - that’s the risk Jesus and the other prophets took for bringing the Message of God. Jesus understood this fact very well and that’s why he said he must go thru the sufferings (as the other prophets who came before him).

                              So, no, he DID NOT predict his ‘death’ BUT death was his expectation considering the situation he was in. It’s like if your enemies, whose main objective is to get rid of you, are closing in on you, you too can expect to be killed – in that circumstance, you definitely are not predicting your death.


                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Trucker View Post

                                A brief summation .... Which specific passages are abrogated will vary among the Islamic Scholars. But generally speaking conflicting [self contradictions] passages are reconciled by the newer [so called] revelation abrogating the earlier one which is contradicted. One thing is for sure, the Satanic verses were really abrogated since they were obliterated from Qur'an.

                                I would second George's question ...are you a Muslim? And, if yes, by birth or by conversion?
                                You did not answer my question. I asked you what abrogated verses in the Quran are you referring to ?? In other words, I am asking you to give me examples of those abrogated verses.

                                Yes, I am a Muslim by birth but brought up in a Christian environment. If you are seeking the truth, why would knowing I am a Muslim or not even matters ??

                                Comment

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