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Ask me anything about Islam and I'll try to answer it as well as I can.

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  • Originally posted by Al Masihi View Post
    It was a way to get out of a discussion that wasn’t going anywhere and was due to your constant use of circular reasoning. You can say whatever you want to say, however I’m not the only one to point this out, people on christian forums pointed this out, people here as I’m reading pointed this out for you, and even Christian members of islamicity forums pointed out that your twisting verses to make random arguments, itnsead of logically discussing pretty much anything put in front of you. Plus people can read the thread for themselves and decide who was twisting verses and jumping arguments to make a point. You see why I don’t discuss things with you, when your answered on one topic you jump to a new one, first you said the trinity is polythestic
    It was a way to get out of any discussion. Period. The rest of your comment is based on which side of the fence you are speaking from, as I could give the same reasons if I want a way out of further discussions with you.

    …….AND as for saying that I first said trinity is polytheist, I don’t really recall I said that, although I may have implied that, BUT, that’s what trinity is, no matter how you want to define it. Then again, I also said the problem of trinity is NOT how you or the Christians understand or define it, the problem with trinity is that it was NOT a divine doctrine, meaning it did not originate from God, and thus, nor was it preached by Jesus or by any prophets of God.

    So, AGAIN, if you can just show me the words of Jesus that he said, implied or inferred that could show he indeed was preaching trinity in his lifetime, that would be a great help. If you can’t do that, at least, show me the Words of God Almighty which said, implied or inferred that trinity originated from God Almighty.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Al Masihi View Post
      After atleast three-four months since our original discussion on the topic I’’d have expected you to atleast come up with something new or atleast reflect on your old arguments, clearly this is not the case. It’s also pretty clear that you brought up this issue on our previous debate thread and it didn’t go well for you judging by how you started to bend the argument. In any case I just don’t feel like going over a dead topic that simply has no leg to stand on. God bless.
      Well, saying, “In any case I just don’t feel like going over a dead topic that simply has no leg to stand on“, is another way to get out of a discussion !!

      Fact is, your old and tired Christian arguments on Jeremiah 8:8, no matter how you twist and bend it, has been refuted time and time again, and it didn’t go well with you and you did what comes naturally to you – you bow out of the discussion.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Trucker View Post



        Then why do you keep harping on it?????

        You're trolling, Jerry!!
        I CLEARLY told you to get over it and move on !! And because I said that, I am the one who keep harping on it ??!! Like WHAT ??!!
        No wonder you cannot understand your own Scripture !!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by George View Post
          The text says: "My people do not know the ordinance of the Lord." (Hebrew Bible)
          It does not say they don't have the Law.
          Yes, saying ‘they do not know the Law’ does NOT mean the Law is NOT there, it just means they DO NOT follow or abide by the Law although the Law is there. Likewise, motorists who broke the traffic laws does not mean the traffic laws are not in place, it just means mean these motorists choose to ignore them.

          Originally posted by George View Post
          And verse 9: Wise men were ashamed, they were broken and caught; behold they rejected the word of the Lord, now what wisdom have they?
          Again yes, when they, consciously or unconsciously, follow a Law other than the Law that God has decreed, it means they had, technically, ignored the Words of the LORD.

          Originally posted by George View Post
          I don't believe the Qur'an claims that the text of the Bible has been changed, but instead misinterpreted.
          Nope, the Quran, like Jeremiah 8:8, CLEARLY said, the previous people have distorted the Book with their own hands (that is what they wrote) and tongues (that is, what they preached).

          Originally posted by George View Post
          However, how else would Muslims explain that the Qur'an says it confirms past revelations when in-fact it contradicts it?
          Again, the Quran NEVER confirmed the gospels you have today, BUT, it confirmed the past revelations as received and preached by Moses and Jesus.

          Originally posted by George View Post
          The Qur'an says no one can change the word of Allah and that would be an empty statement if some scribe changed it.
          Also, Jesus said "the Scriptures cannot be broken."
          Again yes, no one can change the Words of Allah simply means no one can change what He had declared as only He can do that. For example, God Almighty said He’s only ONE and besides Him, there’s no others. This will always remain true no matter how people has try to change it and said He’s a triune God.

          And do you know the context in which Jesus said the Scripture cannot be broken ??

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Akriboo View Post

            A scribe is a writer. Writers MAY be copyists who copy books letter for letter. But they MAY also be commentators who write their opinions on what a book contains. How will you go about proving that Jeremiah was referring to mere copyists rather than commentators/interpreters in Jer. 8:8 ?
            A scribe, from the Biblical perspective, is definitely NOT a commentator per se and definitely more than just a mere copyist - https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/scribes/

            Scribes held important public duties as men of high authority and influence in the affairs of state, and thus, often be seen as teachers of the Law too. What they penned or wrote was thus, often seen as the Law and that’s why God told Jeremiah to tell his people “'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?”.

            Even Jesus warned his people to be wary of the scribes, which tells us, Jesus definitely understand Jeremiah 8:8 and the high regard people have of the scribes, BUT Jesus also knew the scribes can be pretentious as they can, and had twisted the Law by writing lies (as seen in Jeremiah 8:8).


            Comment


            • Originally posted by Al Masihi View Post

              That would make more sense since in Jeremiah 26: 4-6 we are told that the Law still exists and should be followed:

              "Say to them, ‘This is what the LORD says: If you do not listen to me and follow MY LAW, which I have set before you, and if you do not listen to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I have sent to you again and again (though you have not listened) then I will make this house like Shiloh and this city an object of cursing among all the nations of the earth.’"( Jeremiah 26:4-6)
              Well, read Jeremiah 26:4-6 carefully instead of talking nonsense while claiming to make more sense.
              Key phrases here are “If you do not listen to me and follow MY LAW”, “if you do not listen to the words of my servants the prophets” and “(though you have not listened)” – all these tell us the people are not following the Law of God and if they are NOT following the Law of God, then, obviously, they are following some other Law which they thought was the Law of God.

              In other words, no one is saying the Law of God is not there, the Law is there, BUT, the people are not abiding by this Law as they are obviously following some man-made Law which was passed as the Law of God, and God remanded them for doing that.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post

                Well, saying, “In any case I just don’t feel like going over a dead topic that simply has no leg to stand on“, is another way to get out of a discussion !!

                Fact is, your old and tired Christian arguments on Jeremiah 8:8, no matter how you twist and bend it, has been refuted time and time again, and it didn’t go well with you and you did what comes naturally to you – you bow out of the discussion.
                As you say , at the end of the day I don't really care so feel free to keep repeating yourself. As I previously said people can read and think for themselves.
                Last edited by Al Masihi; 02-11-19, 06:28 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post

                  Well, read Jeremiah 26:4-6 carefully instead of talking nonsense while claiming to make more sense.
                  Key phrases here are “If you do not listen to me and follow MY LAW”, “if you do not listen to the words of my servants the prophets” and “(though you have not listened)” – all these tell us the people are not following the Law of God and if they are NOT following the Law of God, then, obviously, they are following some other Law which they thought was the Law of God.

                  In other words, no one is saying the Law of God is not there, the Law is there, BUT, the people are not abiding by this Law as they are obviously following some man-made Law which was passed as the Law of God, and God remanded them for doing that.
                  Ok, then the law still exists and we still follow it. Some people left the law however we have it in our scriptures.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post

                    It was a way to get out of any discussion. Period. The rest of your comment is based on which side of the fence you are speaking from, as I could give the same reasons if I want a way out of further discussions with you.

                    …….AND as for saying that I first said trinity is polytheist, I don’t really recall I said that, although I may have implied that, BUT, that’s what trinity is, no matter how you want to define it. Then again, I also said the problem of trinity is NOT how you or the Christians understand or define it, the problem with trinity is that it was NOT a divine doctrine, meaning it did not originate from God, and thus, nor was it preached by Jesus or by any prophets of God.

                    So, AGAIN, if you can just show me the words of Jesus that he said, implied or inferred that could show he indeed was preaching trinity in his lifetime, that would be a great help. If you can’t do that, at least, show me the Words of God Almighty which said, implied or inferred that trinity originated from God Almighty.
                    You said the Trinity is the worship of three gods as I recall. You didn't address what I originally said on the Trinity, I explained why its not Polytheism. On Christian forums I think we dealt with the concept of a triune God in the Bible, the disciples of Christ and the apostles are prophets in Christianity they preached a trinity as we have their non biblical writings and the writings of their students all dealing with God being a Trinity. Secondly in Christianity we believe the Church can't err on doctrine because Jesus promised to guard it and we know he didn't lie and we know doctrines were revealed to it and developed over time. In Christianity we believe revelation can progress and develop based on something originally revealed. We know that God is one according to the first commandment and we know that each person of the Trinity is called God at least once in the New Testament and from there the Church further defined and developed this idea with explanation into the doctrine of the Trinity.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                      Originally posted by Trucker View Post

                      Then why do you keep harping on it?????

                      You're trolling, Jerry!!
                      I CLEARLY told you to get over it and move on !! And because I said that, I am the one who keep harping on it ??!! Like WHAT ??!!
                      No wonder you cannot understand your own Scripture !!
                      You're trolling, Jerry.
                      Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Al Masihi View Post

                        That would make more sense since in Jeremiah 26: 4-6 we are told that the Law still exists and should be followed:

                        "Say to them, ‘This is what the LORD says: If you do not listen to me and follow MY LAW, which I have set before you, and if you do not listen to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I have sent to you again and again (though you have not listened) then I will make this house like Shiloh and this city an object of cursing among all the nations of the earth.’"( Jeremiah 26:4-6)
                        The following is a short informative video, which explains what is going on in Jeremiah 8:8 and how some take it out of context.

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf-PUIeHmTw

                        Also, this is what the Qur'an says:
                        1. The Children of Israel possess the Scripture, the Tawrat. (2:40-47,101; 5:41-49)
                        2. The Children of Israel are readers of the Scripture (2:40-44, 113, 121; 10:95), teach and study it. (3:78,79)
                        3. The Children of Israel show the Scriptures. (6:92)
                        4. The Tawrat is to judge the Children of Israel. (5:43)
                        5. Later generations are taught and exhorted to have faith in and hold fast the previous Scripture. (19:12; 66:12; 3:48)
                        6. Jews and Christians are to observe the Tawrat and Injil, apart from which they do not have guidance. (5:65-69)
                        These verses hardly say the Torah has been "corrupted."
                        They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                          A scribe, from the Biblical perspective, is definitely NOT a commentator per se and definitely more than just a mere copyist - https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/scribes/

                          Scribes held important public duties as men of high authority and influence in the affairs of state, and thus, often be seen as teachers of the Law too. What they penned or wrote was thus, often seen as the Law and that’s why God told Jeremiah to tell his people “'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?”.

                          Even Jesus warned his people to be wary of the scribes, which tells us, Jesus definitely understand Jeremiah 8:8 and the high regard people have of the scribes, BUT Jesus also knew the scribes can be pretentious as they can, and had twisted the Law by writing lies (as seen in Jeremiah 8:8).

                          Nothing you have written there demonstrates that the scribes wrote versions of the Torah that changed the appearance of the Torah. You admit that they were more than just copyists and that they interpreted the Law for the people who sometimes mistook their explanation of the Law for the Law itself. In Jesus' day the teachers of the law would read a scripture and then cite earlier scribes, saying "Hillel says..." or some other expert/scribe "wrote" had written to explain what the text meant. What amazed the Jews was that Jesus did not cite other scribes to explain the meaning of texts, but gave his own interpretation. Hence they said "he speaks with authority, not like the scribes". Nothing you have written supplies evidence that the text of the Torah itself was changed by the scribes.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Al Masihi View Post
                            As you say , at the end of the day I don't really care so feel free to keep repeating yourself. As I previously said people can read and think for themselves.
                            Yes, it is exactly what I said it is, and yes, I will keep on repeating as I have no problems in exposing the falsehood of the words of other people that you took as the gospel truth.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Al Masihi View Post
                              Ok, then the law still exists and we still follow it. Some people left the law however we have it in our scriptures.
                              The Bible you have today is a mixture of truth and lies, so, yes, the Law is still there, BUT, you seem to follow the lies, or you can say, the lying pen of the scribes rather than the truth of the words of God Almighty or His prophet, Jesus.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Al Masihi View Post
                                You said the Trinity is the worship of three gods as I recall. You didn't address what I originally said on the Trinity, I explained why its not Polytheism. On Christian forums I think we dealt with the concept of a triune God in the Bible, the disciples of Christ and the apostles are prophets in Christianity they preached a trinity as we have their non biblical writings and the writings of their students all dealing with God being a Trinity. Secondly in Christianity we believe the Church can't err on doctrine because Jesus promised to guard it and we know he didn't lie and we know doctrines were revealed to it and developed over time. In Christianity we believe revelation can progress and develop based on something originally revealed. We know that God is one according to the first commandment and we know that each person of the Trinity is called God at least once in the New Testament and from there the Church further defined and developed this idea with explanation into the doctrine of the Trinity.
                                As I said, the problem of trinity is NOT how you or the Christians understand or define it, the problem with trinity is that it was NOT a divine doctrine, meaning it did not originate from God, and thus, nor was it preached by Jesus or by any prophets of God.

                                So, let me address what you just said (in italic) :

                                [1] In Christianity, the disciples of Jesus and the apostles are prophets. Are you saying they are prophets of God, or are you saying that figuratively to mean they were religious and men of piety ??

                                [2] In Christianity, the church can’t err on doctrine because Jesus had promised to guard it. Can you show which Biblical verse are you referring to that said Jesus promised to guard the doctrine ??

                                [3] In Christianity, all the disciples of Jesus and the apostles preached trinity and you derived to that conclusion based on non-Biblical writings, meaning you cannot find anything in the Scripture/Bible that said, implied or inferred that Jesus preached trinity in his lifetime.

                                [4] In Christianity, you believe revelation can progress and develop based on something originally revealed, meaning you believed the original Revelation as revealed by God can be developed or modified into a ‘new’ revelation. Again, you need to show Biblical verses of God Almighty or His prophets saying, implying or inferring such.

                                [5] In Christianity, you know that God is one according to the first commandment and you know that each person of the Trinity is called God at least once in the New Testament and from there the Church further defined and developed this idea with explanation into the doctrine of the Trinity, which only proved what I have been saying all this while and that is, the early church had tailor-fit the Scripture into the man-made doctrine of trinity as there’s NOT a single verse in the Bible that mentioned trinity, let alone, said each person of the trinity is God. Yes, we know, the Father that Jesus referred to is God and that too as a figurative reference of a loving ‘father-son’ relationship, and NOT because he believes he’s God the Son. We also know the Holy Spirit is the extension of God’s Energy Self, and so, literally, the Holy Spirit is God. But, where in the whole Bible, did God ever say Jesus is God the Son or Jesus ever said, implied, or inferred that he’s God the Son ?? Please note, “S/son of God’ is NOT God the Son from the Scripture perspective.

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