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Ask me anything about Islam and I'll try to answer it as well as I can.

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  • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post

    Furthermore, Jesus NEVER prayed to God to save him AFTER he 'was killed' and if he did, I would like to see that passage in your Scripture.
    Where did you get the idea Jesus prayed to God to save Him after He was killed?



    They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

    Comment


    • Originally posted by George View Post
      Jesus predicted His death and resurrection.
      Jesus EXPECTED to be killed and as he expected to be killed he quoted Hosea 6:2 when all the dead will be raised on the third day.

      There is a deeper message as to why Jesus would quote Hosea 6:2 every time he said he would be killed. If you have read to understand Hosea 6, you will know that passage is about a call to the people to return to the Only True God. So, whenever Jesus said he will be killed and be raised on the third day, Jesus, in expecting that he would no longer be around, is calling his people to return to the Only True God and that’s why Jesus also said, “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent”. Why would Jesus said “that they know you, the only true God’ if he himself think he’s God ?? The obvious answer is Jesus is NOT God, but he knew there are people who took him as God and that’s why he said “that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent”. In other words, Jesus here is making a clear distinction between the Only True God and himself, a prophet who was sent by the Only True God.

      Originally posted by George View Post
      Jesus quoted Psalm 22 while on the cross. You say you only accept Jesus' words, but then you reject them.
      Jesus NEVER quoted Psalm 22 from the cross because he was NEVER on the cross !!

      Psalm 22 is a prophecy about God saving Jesus from the cross. The first verse of Psalm 22 is a view of unanswered prayers of someone who had prayed earnestly to God to save him from his predicament. However, as we read further down the passage, we realized that this view of unanswered prayers is only a false perception as we are told that God “has listened to his cry for help”. .

      Originally posted by George View Post
      Psalm 22 turns to praise around verse 21. God was with Jesus and Jesus rose from the dead never to die again.
      WRONG. All the dead will be raised and never to die again – the righteous believers will be with God in His kingdom of heaven and the unbelievers will be condemned in the eternal hell.

      Psalm 22:22 onward turns to praises of God because God will save Jesus – “Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs. Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen.” – Psalm 22:20-21. Notice that Psalm 22:20-21 is NOT about someone who’s praying to be saved AFTER he died.

      Originally posted by George View Post
      Do you know how many Muslim interpretations there are of Surah 4:157?

      Here is one:

      "The belief of the Muslims that Jesus did not die is based on Sura 4:157. But it is clear that that verse does not give that understanding ... specially if we take into consideration the other verse in which God said, 'Isa [Jesus] I am about to cause you to die and lift you up to me', and also the words, 'Peace be upon me, the day I was born, and the day I die, the day I am raised up alive'. Naturally the Qur'an does not contradict itself, for the the expression 'mutawaffika' means that he will die ... and also the expression 'the day I die' points in the same direction. So the straight understanding becomes that the Christ was killed, then raised up. And that is what is pointed to by the words of God, 'and they slew him not of a certainty - no indeed', which means that without any doubt they killed him, as they thought they did, but they slew him not of a certainty which is the same expression as 'they thought they did' ... this meaning appears in the Qur'an in other places such as the words of God, 'you did not slay them, but God did, and when thou throwest, it was not thyself that threw, but God threw'. And the meaning of that verse is that, when you killed them, it was not you who killed them, but it was God.
      Mamoud Mohammad Taha, al-Masih, first edition, 1981, al-'Ikhwan al-Gomhuriyun, 'Um Durman, Sudan, p.9,10"
      It is the Muslims who are in doubt as to what happened to Jesus, but Christians know for sure and we have no doubts.
      "was made to appear so" means that the Jews thought they killed Jesus but in fact the Romans did.
      [/quote]

      Mamoud Mohammad Taha is a controversial Sudanese scholar and he was tried and found guilty for apostasy in 1967, so, I can see why his views are popular with the Christians.

      The expression 'mutawaffika' have a range of meanings and does NOT just confined to mean to cause to die. It can also mean ‘to recall’, ‘to gather back’ or ‘to take back’. So, one has to understand the context of the verse in relation to the subject matter, in this case, the subject matter is Jesus Christ.

      In Quran 4:157, we are told that Jesus was not crucified nor was he killed, but was made to appear so unto them, meaning, someone was crucified and killed, but, that ‘someone’ is NOT Jesus.

      So, what happened to Jesus ? This is explained in Quran 3:55 – (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering ('mutawaffika') thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ”Pickthall translation .

      “Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take ('mutawaffika') thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute” – Yusuf Ali translation.

      When Jesus said 'Peace be upon me, the day I was born, and the day I die, the day I am raised up alive', he was NOT referring to him having to die on the cross for the sin of mankind nor was he talking about rising from the dead like Count Dracula, he was referring to the 3 most significant days of any believer’s life, that is, the day we were born, the day we will die and the day God will raise us up alive, that is, the Day of Resurrection. If you don’t believe in the Day of Resurrection, then, you are NOT a true believer to begin with.

      Muslims are NEVER in doubt as to what happened to Jesus as the Quran is crystal-clear about that. It’s the Christians who are in doubt as they have to rely on the words of other people, NOT Jesus’, as to what happened to Jesus

      Originally posted by George View Post
      "was made to appear so" means that the Jews thought they killed Jesus but in fact the Romans did.
      No. The expression “was made to appear so unto them” means someone was crucified and killed but that ‘someone’ is NOT Jesus Christ, BUT, the people perceived it was him. It’s like saying, it was made to appear so unto the audience that the illusionist/magician was sawing the woman into half, but, of course, the woman was not really sawn into half, but, the audience perceived that’s what happening. Surely, no one going to say here ‘was made to appear so’ means the illusionist/magician did not saw the woman into half but in fact the electric saw he was using did !! Come on, give me a break !!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by pvb View Post

        We are going to trust you over Scripture!?! LOL!!!
        AND we are going to trust a faith that preaches God is incapable to forgive sins but require a man to die for the sins of all mankind ??!! LOL !!!!!!!!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by George View Post

          Where did you get the idea Jesus prayed to God to save Him after He was killed?


          When did I say Jesus prayed to God to save him after he was killed ??

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post

            When did I say Jesus prayed to God to save him after he was killed ??
            From you:

            "Furthermore, Jesus NEVER prayed to God to save him AFTER he 'was killed' and if he did, I would like to see that passage in your Scripture."

            They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
              Originally
              posted by George View Post
              Jesus predicted His death and resurrection.
              Jesus EXPECTED to be killed and as he expected to be killed he quoted Hosea 6:2 when all the dead will be raised on the third day.
              Jesus KNEW He would be crucified which is why He could and did predict the events. He subsequently fulfilled the prophecies just as the Scriptures relate..

              Satan, the antChrist, and their disciples would have us believe otherwise.
              Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post

                AND we are going to trust a faith that preaches God is incapable to forgive sins but require a man to die for the sins of all mankind ??!! LOL !!!!!!!!
                Nope - It seems you still don't understand consequences. If GOD just forgave everyone without some kind of consequence, HE would not be a righteous GOD.

                Why GOD demands a blood sacrifice -
                Leviticus 17
                11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
                2 Timothy 3
                16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post

                  AND we are going to trust a faith that preaches God is incapable to forgive sins but require a man to die for the sins of all mankind ??!! LOL !!!!!!!!
                  And we are going to trust a faith that requires walking around a pagan rock 7 times and parrotting prayers in a language most devotees dont even understand 5 x a day !

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                    Jesus DID NOT rise from the dead as I have explained to you.

                    If he was crucified and killed, it means God had forsaken him. As I said, your logic and rationale that God did not forsake Jesus because God saved him from death is as ridiculous as saying the convicted man on death row was saved from the gallows by the pardon of the King AFTER he was hanged and confirmed dead, therefore, the King did not forsake him !!

                    Fact is Jesus was not crucified nor was he killed is THE proof that God DID NOT forsake Jesus as prophesized in Psalm 22. Furthermore, Jesus NEVER prayed to God to save him AFTER he 'was killed' and if he did, I would like to see that passage in your Scripture.


                    BUT the Quran DID say so CLEARLY Jesus was not killed nor was he crucified, BUT was made to appear so upon them, meaning, someone was crucified and killed, BUT, that ‘someone’ is NOT Jesus Christ, but was made to appear so unto them.
                    All Muslims have in regards to the crucifixion is wishful thinking.
                    It is extremely well attested to by non Christian sources contemporary to the time that indeed Jesus was crucified. Those contemporary sources have far more credibility than Muslim wishful thinking that came along 600 years later !

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by pvb View Post

                      Nope - It seems you still don't understand consequences. If GOD just forgave everyone without some kind of consequence, HE would not be a righteous GOD.

                      Why GOD demands a blood sacrifice -
                      Leviticus 17
                      11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
                      Good point pvb. Also consider. It was more than just forgiveness. It was also cleansing.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by George View Post

                        From you:

                        "Furthermore, Jesus NEVER prayed to God to save him AFTER he 'was killed' and if he did, I would like to see that passage in your Scripture."
                        I think you missed the word ‘NEVER’ in my statement. So, again, when did I say Jesus prayed to God to save him after he was killed ??

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Trucker View Post

                          Jesus KNEW He would be crucified which is why He could and did predict the events. He subsequently fulfilled the prophecies just as the Scriptures relate..

                          Satan, the antChrist, and their disciples would have us believe otherwise.
                          On the contrary – Satan, the anti-Christ, would love you to believe Jesus died for your sins, because that would take your hope of a savior AWAY from the Only True Savior, God Almighty, and instead place your hope on His servant, Jesus Christ, who was sent by God Almighty.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pvb View Post

                            Nope - It seems you still don't understand consequences. If GOD just forgave everyone without some kind of consequence, HE would not be a righteous GOD.

                            Why GOD demands a blood sacrifice -
                            Leviticus 17
                            11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
                            Nope - It seems you still don't understand the Supreme Power of God Almighty. God can forgive the sins of anyone He wishes. God created heavens and hell specially for the consequences of His servants actions on earth. The consequence for doing good deeds, believing in Him (God Almighty). listening and adhering to His prophets’ preaching, will likely ends you in His heaven and the consequence of doing the opposite, will likely ends you in hell – there’s no need for anyone to die for someone’s else sins, it’s within God’s Power and Authority to forgive you or not, and that’s why Jesus preached repentance for the forgiveness of sin, NOT that your sins will be wiped out just by believing he must die for your sins !!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Acts2 View Post

                              And we are going to trust a faith that requires walking around a pagan rock 7 times and parrotting prayers in a language most devotees dont even understand 5 x a day !
                              Why not, if that’s what it takes to show your love and devotion to the Only True God Almighty ?? What do Christians do to show their love and their devotion to the Only True God ??

                              And what make you think Muslims do not understand what they are saying in their prayers ?? Arabic may not be the mother tongue language of all Muslims, but, to say ALL Muslims do not understand what they said in their daily prayers is a display of your ignorance.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Acts2 View Post

                                All Muslims have in regards to the crucifixion is wishful thinking.
                                It is extremely well attested to by non Christian sources contemporary to the time that indeed Jesus was crucified. Those contemporary sources have far more credibility than Muslim wishful thinking that came along 600 years later !
                                All Muslims have in regards to the crucifixion IS the truth.

                                All those contemporary sources are proofs to what the Quran had narrated, that is, the crucifixion of Jesus was made to appear so unto them, so, understandably, they wrote what they believed – Jesus was crucified and killed, but, he was not, as he was saved by God, as prophesized in Psalm 22.

                                Comment

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