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1 John 5:7 and the Trinity

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  • 1 John 5:7 and the Trinity



    1 John 5:7 is one of the most popular verses used to prove a Trinity. Does it really support the idea that God is three persons.
    Discover the true meaning of this verse and why it can't be used in defense of the Trinity.
    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."(person), both will fall into a pit."

  • #2
    Originally posted by Asry View Post


    1 John 5:7 is one of the most popular verses used to prove a Trinity. Does it really support the idea that God is three persons.
    Discover the true meaning of this verse and why it can't be used in defense of the Trinity.
    1 John 5:7 is not used to prove the Trinity.

    They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

    Comment


    • #3
      The verse has been used from the very beginning of the Church's history to prove the Trinity!

      Bishop Cyprian of Carthage, wrote around 250 AD, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians
      200 AD Tertullian wrote "which three are one" based on the verse in hisAgainst Praxeas, chapter 25.
      250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
      350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
      350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
      350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
      398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitateagainst the heresy of Sabellianism
      415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
      450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
      A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
      B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
      C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
      500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
      550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
      550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
      750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
      800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
      1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
      1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
      1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
      157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
      1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
      Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by George View Post

        1 John 5:7 is not used to prove the Trinity.
        It has been said throughout the early centuries, Catholic scribes made other alterations in their Greek texts to validate the doctrine of the Trinity.

        Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."(person), both will fall into a pit."

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Asry View Post
          It has been said throughout the early centuries, Catholic scribes made other alterations in their Greek texts to validate the doctrine of the Trinity.
          Where is your source?

          Give us your definition of the concept of the Trinity.

          Where can I find the concept of the Trinity refuted in the Qur'ran? It isn't there. I suggest your Allah never heard of it.
          They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Asry View Post


            1 John 5:7 is one of the most popular verses used to prove a Trinity. Does it really support the idea that God is three persons.
            Discover the true meaning of this verse and why it can't be used in defense of the Trinity.
            The WORD WAS MADE FLESH, while the Father was still in heaven and the Holy Ghost came unto men so there are 3 that make up One God. Look here in the old Testament how THE WORD(Jesus) of the LORD came to Abram. It does not say THE LORD CAME, it says THE WORD, of the LORD came, yet when Abram spoke to The Word, he called him Lord(Jesus)GOD not the LORD the Father, yet he knew he was talking to God. God creates all things through His Word/Son and nothing is made without God's Word who is the Arm of God, the Hand of God, the Voice of God, The Word of God is the Light of the world. When the Father said, Let there be Light, He spoke of His Word that went forth. The sun and moon were not created until the 4th day, so this Light was Jesus the Word of Life, the Christ of God.

            Gen 15:1-4
            15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

            2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

            3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

            4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
            KJV

            Ps 33:6

            6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
            KJV


            John 1:1-5
            1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

            2 The same was in the beginning with God.

            3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

            4 In him was life;
            and the life was the light of men.

            5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
            KJV

            John 1:14
            14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
            KJV

            1 John 1:1-2
            1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

            2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; )
            KJV

            1 John 5:7

            7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
            KJV


            Rev 19:13-15

            13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

            14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

            15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
            KJV
            The purpose of my posts are not to cause bicker or division, but to show truth from the scripture for edifying of the soul. It does not matter what we think, it is what God's Word says that matters.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by George View Post

              Where is your source?

              Give us your definition of the concept of the Trinity.

              Where can I find the concept of the Trinity refuted in the Qur'ran? It isn't there. I suggest your Allah never heard of it.
              God in the old testament also never heard of it .That's why He never said anything about it. Come to think of it, thr prophets and Jesus also never heard of it. That's why they too never said anything about it.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by afaithfulone4u View Post

                The WORD WAS MADE FLESH, while the Father was still in heaven and the Holy Ghost came unto men so there are 3 that make up One God. Look here in the old Testament how THE WORD(Jesus) of the LORD came to Abram. It does not say THE LORD CAME, it says THE WORD, of the LORD came, yet when Abram spoke to The Word, he called him Lord(Jesus)GOD not the LORD the Father, yet he knew he was talking to God.
                Thats some convoluted thinking right there.

                The "Word of the Lord" simply means the divine words of God revealed to the prophets. It's not a person as you seem to be thinking.

                The "Word" also came to Jeremiah and Ezekiel? (See Jeremiah 1:4 and Ezekiel 21:2). We understand from the next verses that the "Word" they spoke of was a message from God.

                as for Jesus being called the word of God, it is a title because Jesus only spoke the words sent to him by God.


                "My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. -- John 7:16

                These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. – John 14:24

                For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. – John 12:49


                BUT that does not make Jesus divine.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post

                  God in the old testament also never heard of it .That's why He never said anything about it. Come to think of it, thr prophets and Jesus also never heard of it. That's why they too never said anything about it.
                  My God is all-knowing and of course, knew that the incarnation would be a huge testimony of the New Testament.

                  The concept of the Trinity is hinted at in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament.

                  Your problem and your Allah's problem is that the incarnation was well know by the time the Qur'an was written and it would have been a subject that needed addressing and yet the Qur'an is silent on this subject. I think because your Allah had never heard of it.

                  They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.” [King James/Authorized Version, 1611]

                    The authenticity of this passage has been in question at least since the 16th century, when the Dutch scholar Desiderius Erasmus did not include it in his first edition of the Greek New Testament (1516). Though Catholic authorities hotly criticized him for the omission, Erasmus defended himself by saying he found it in none of the Greek manuscripts available to him at the time. Catholics feared the publication of a Greek New Testament to begin with. For such a work would give informed scholars "a tool with which to criticize and correct the official Latin Bible of the Church" (Metzger, 96).

                    Worse would be a perceived attack on the doctrine of the Trinity. For 1 John 5:7 was the only verse in the NT that came close to supporting the trinitarian creed.

                    Naively, Erasmus promised that he would restore the omitted passage if even one Greek text were brought to him. Shortly, such a text was specially composed and given to him (Codex Montfortianus, Greg. 61), and he made good on his promise, even though he disbelieved the verse was authentic. He included it in his 3rd edition in 1522.

                    The editors of the King James Version (1611) used a later recension of Erasmus' 3rd edition with the Trinitarian text included. Only in the late 1800s did English translators and editors abandon the famous text, based on the increased evidence of more Greek manuscripts.

                    For more details on the Erasmus Story.

                    Since the time of Erasmus, New Testament scholars have accumulated additional evidence that strongly suggests the passage is not original to the Letter of 1 John.

                    The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript dating before the 16th century [the era of controversy over Erasmus' Greek edition].

                    The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies of the 3rd and 4th centuries (Sabellian and Arian).

                    The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic) — except the Latin. But it is not found in Jerome's original Latin Vulgate (Codex Fuldensis, Codex Amiatinus) or in the Old Latin version in its early form (as used by Tertullian, Cyprian, and Augustine).

                    The earliest instance of the passage is in a 4th century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus (chap. 4), attributed either to Priscillian (d. ca. 385) or his follower Bishop Instantius in Spanish. The passage was apparently written in the margin as an allegorical gloss. In the 6th century scribes began to include it within the text of 1 John 5, where it shows up in later copies of the Old Latin and Jerome's Vulgate.

                    Martin Luther ruled out verse 7 from his German Bible (1545). But in 1574 the printer Feyerabend added it to Luther's text.

                    Isaac Newton (1643–1727) wrote at length on this verse (which he regarded as spurious) in a letter to a friend (14 Nov. 1690) [The Correspondence of Isaac Newton, ed. H. W. Turnbull (Cambridge, 1961), 3:83-109].

                    For excellent introduction to the field of Textual Criticism by a scholar with a high view of Scripture, see Paul D. Wegner's A Student's Guide to Textual Criticism of the Bible (Its History, Methods & Results) (InterVarsity Press, 2006)
                    Last edited by Asry; 11-11-18, 10:21 AM.
                    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."(person), both will fall into a pit."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post

                      Thats some convoluted thinking right there.

                      The "Word of the Lord" simply means the divine words of God revealed to the prophets. It's not a person as you seem to be thinking.

                      The "Word" also came to Jeremiah and Ezekiel? (See Jeremiah 1:4 and Ezekiel 21:2). We understand from the next verses that the "Word" they spoke of was a message from God.

                      as for Jesus being called the word of God, it is a title because Jesus only spoke the words sent to him by God.


                      "My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. -- John 7:16

                      These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. – John 14:24

                      For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. – John 12:49


                      BUT that does not make Jesus divine.
                      Context, Scorpion.

                      An understanding of the concept of the Trinity is key in understanding who the second person of the Trinity is and He is the Word of God "son" by relationship.

                      “Persons” means there are three personal distinctions within God, each who is fully God, yet only one God.

                      The easiest way to show personhood is to look at the Holy Spirit.

                      Attributes of (9)

                      7. Eternal – Heb. 9:14
                      8. Omnipotent- Luke 1:35
                      9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:7
                      10. Distinct Will from the father and the son- 1 Cor.12:11
                      11.
                      Loves- Rom.15:30
                      12. Speaks – Acts 8:29; 13.2
                      13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
                      14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
                      15.
                      Alive- John 14:17

                      The person of the Holy Spirit does what a person does; He teaches, He speaks, He can be grieved.

                      Jesus spoke of the Advocate/Comforter, the Spirit of God and referred to Him as a "He" using a pronoun. Jesus said He would teach and only a person can teach.

                      There is an ordering or a chain of command within the Trinity. All comes from the Father (God). It is God who sends the son; the son never sends the Father. God sends His Holy Spirit and tells Him what to do and speak. That is why Peter said if you have lied to the Holy Spirit you have lied to God.

                      The Holy Spirit says what He hears from the Father.

                      God’s Word is the second person of the Trinity. It is God’s Word who incarnated Jesus of Nazarath, making Him one person with two natures. That is why Jesus said He could do nothing on His own; that is why Jesus said in John 17, “5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

                      That is why Jesus as the incarnate Word of God could say that the Father is greater than He is. Greater in authority or office, but not in essence.

                      Jesus is the incarnate Son of God, but He is not the Father and not the Holy Spirit. That is what makes Jesus divine.

                      Your Allah had never heard of the incarnation; otherwise he would never have said that Jesus could not be God because He had to eat food.
                      They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

                      Comment

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