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The Quran confirms the Gospels / Injeel

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  • Originally posted by Acts2 View Post
    I read your Huffpost article and there is nothing new here. Everyone knows access to the scriptures was restricted by the 4th Century church after Constantine. This is why the Reformation eventually developed. The article is simply about access to the scriptures being restricted in the Middle Ages. Nothing about the original scriptures being vetted or ‘corrupted’ at an earlier time or about their transmission being unreliable. With this in mind Muslims have a far more serious problem with Uthmans recension. In the Muslim case it wasn’t about the access of the Muslim scriptures being restricted but it was actually about the original scriptures being vetted and changed !!!

    The purpose of the restriction is because they wanted to control what the people can read and what they cannot – that itself tells us the Scripture is vetted through.

    And what is this ‘Uthman recension’ you talking about ?? I have already explained it to you but if this is something new than what you have brought up before, let’s hear it.

    Originally posted by Acts2 View Post
    Regarding the Sanna Quran, in 1972 a large number of ancient Quranic manuscripts were discovered which significantly differs from the present standard Quran. Carbon-dating puts the origin of some of the parchments to 645–690 CE.
    Many manuscripts showed the sign of palimpsests, i.e., versions very clearly written over even earlier washed off versions. This suggests that the Sana’a manuscripts are not only variants to the present version of the Quran, but the Sana’a manuscripts themselves were variants of earlier version, re-written on the same paper. It means, Allah’s claim that original text is preserved in heaven on tablets (Q 56: 77–78; 85:21–22), which none can touch except the purified / angels is also a fairy-tale.
    It shattered the orthodox Muslim belief that the Quran, as it has reached us today, is “the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God”. It means the Quran has been distorted, perverted, revised, modified and corrected, and textual alterations had taken place over the years purely by human hands.

    So, which verses of the modern Quran are you saying having variances to the Sanaa Quran ??

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Acts2 View Post
      Regarding what is my criteria to determine what is true and what are lies in my scripture that is a good question. In a way one could ask what is truth ? so what is my criteria ? Is the scripture consistent with previous revelation ? Does it line up with own personal experience ? Does it line up with the shared experience with others ? Is it logical ? Does it line up with history ? How ethical is it ? Does that answer your question?

      No, but it does tell me how easy it is to fool Christians into believing anything in the old days, especially when access to the original manuscripts are not available to the public.

      Originally posted by Acts2 View Post
      What about you ? how do you determine what is truth and lies in your scriptures ?

      I already told you. Have you read it or avoid it ??

      Originally posted by Acts2 View Post
      You are wrong in your claim the Bible is a lie as translating its original language of the scripture to English or any other languages would amount to the changing of the original texts. Any linguistic interpretation of something from one language to another can be very accurate. Lets face it people do it daily with success. And actually the opposite can be true. Jesus would have spoken mainly in Aramaic but the gospels were written in Koine Greek. Koine Greek is actually one of the most precise of ancient languages. Hence if someone wants a clear interpretation then Koine Greek is incredibly precise and accurate.

      That’s not what I claimed. Here’s what I said – “Yes, I read them BUT what is your criteria to determine what is true and what are lies in your Scripture ?? I am NOT asking how to determine whether the texts have been changed in your Scripture. If changing the texts means the passage of the Scripture is a lie, then, the whole Bible is a lie as translating the original language of the original Scripture to English or any other languages would amount to the changing of the original texts !!”. So, you need to refer back to what you said that lead me to say what I said.

      Originally posted by Acts2 View Post
      Besides most Christian scholars have been trained in Aramaic, Greek in Hebrew for centuries. I my self have an inter linear Greek/Hebrew/English Bible. And yes we do have the scriptures in the original Greek and Hebrew. Also many Arabic Christians read the scriptures in Aramaic.

      The ‘original’ Greek/Hebrew’ is NOT the original. That’s the translated copy. The English-translated Bible copies you have today are translated from the Greek/Hebrew-translated copy. The originals are no longer available today.

      Originally posted by Acts2 View Post
      So coming to the Muslim insistence of reading the Quran in Arabic. That requirement in itself is clumsy as I see it indicates the Quran is not the Word of God for the very reason why would the Word of God have to be confined to one language? If the Word of God is not universally understood in all languages then as far as Im concerned its not the Word of God.

      Yes, the Quran or the Revelation as given to Muhammad, must be read in Arabic, but, the understanding of the Arabic Quran can be understood in any language. In other words, the language of God is confined to the language of His chosen prophet/messenger of the time, but the understanding of His Revelation can be understood in any language.

      Originally posted by Acts2 View Post
      And please answer me this. How many Muslims read or even understand Classical Arabic? Most do not. They simply parrot Arabic verses without understanding! So in my opinion this crude requirement disqualifies it from being the Word of God.

      All Muslims are told to read and understand the Arabic Quran. Whether they really read to understand or just read or don’t even read the Quran, is between them and God. We can pass judgment on them according to our own human understanding, but, the real Judgment can only come from the Only True God and His Judgment is Just.

      I guess that’s why Jesus said “
      Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you” – Matthew 7:1-2. So in my opinion, you don’t really listen to Jesus Christ.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
        The point is Mark, Luke and John wrote many events relating to Jesus preaching. So, why would they not write something, if it’s that significant to Christianity faith, such as the trinity formula in baptism ?? Unless, of course, trinity was never preached by Jesus.


        Tell me.


        Not really, because I know what baptism represents in the time of Jesus and that is, it represents repentance for the forgiveness of sin, and that’s what Jesus preached in his days.
        You need to read all of the Gospel accounts as a whole.

        Jesus preached there is one God, Jesus said He was the Son of God and Jesus preached that the Holy Spirit is a person.

        Baptism is a symbol of Christ’s burial and resurrection. Our entrance into the water during baptism identifies us with Christ’s death on the cross, His burial in the tomb, and His resurrection from the dead.

        And so does the Lord's supper:

        And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, This is My body given for you; do this in remembrance of Me. In the same way, after the supper He took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you Luke 22:19,20).
        They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
          Holy Spirit descending on people is common throughout the Scripture, and it has NOTHING to do with trinity, maybe only to those with a preconceived mindset.


          Do you understand ‘figurative speech’ or do you take everything literally ??
          Yes as the 3rd Person.

          The perpetual sacrifice in the Temple occurred daily at 9 am and 3 pm Jesus was crucified at 9 am and at 3 pm darkness came over the land. What were the Jews praying for at 9 am and 3 pm - redemption , forgiveness of sins, the coming of the Messiah, and the resurrection of the dead.

          Jesus literally shed HIS blood for all.
          2 Timothy 3
          16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by George View Post

            You need to read all of the Gospel accounts as a whole.

            Jesus preached there is one God, Jesus said He was the Son of God and Jesus preached that the Holy Spirit is a person.

            Baptism is a symbol of Christ’s burial and resurrection. Our entrance into the water during baptism identifies us with Christ’s death on the cross, His burial in the tomb, and His resurrection from the dead.

            And so does the Lord's supper:

            And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, This is My body given for you; do this in remembrance of Me. In the same way, after the supper He took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you Luke 22:19,20).
            Don't be silly George. Jerry doesn't read all of the Gospels as a whole. He just cherry picks out of context what suits him !

            Comment


            • Originally posted by George View Post
              You need to read all of the Gospel accounts as a whole.
              Obviously, you have not. Else, if you have read the gospels as a whole WITHOUT your preconceived mindset, you will know Jesus is NOT God the Son, but, he is son of God, as is one who is righteous and subservient only to the Only True God or in other words, Jesus is a true servant of God.

              Originally posted by George View Post
              Jesus preached there is one God, Jesus said He was the Son of God and Jesus preached that the Holy Spirit is a person.
              When did Jesus say he is God the Son (if that’s your understanding of ‘Son Of God’) and when did Jesus preach the Holy Spirit is a person ??

              Originally posted by George View Post
              Baptism is a symbol of Christ’s burial and resurrection. Our entrance into the water during baptism identifies us with Christ’s death on the cross, His burial in the tomb, and His resurrection from the dead.
              That’s what baptism means today to Christians. What does it mean to be baptized in the days of Jesus and John the Baptist ??

              Originally posted by George View Post
              And so does the Lord's supper:

              And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, This is My body given for you; do this in remembrance of Me. In the same way, after the supper He took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you Luke 22:19,20).
              And you think if someone tell you to fly a kite, it means that someone is asking you to get a kite, find an open field and fly the kite ?? Give me a break !!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by pvb View Post

                Yes as the 3rd Person.

                The perpetual sacrifice in the Temple occurred daily at 9 am and 3 pm Jesus was crucified at 9 am and at 3 pm darkness came over the land. What were the Jews praying for at 9 am and 3 pm - redemption , forgiveness of sins, the coming of the Messiah, and the resurrection of the dead.

                Jesus literally shed HIS blood for all.
                You mean you took and understood those passages literally ???!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                  Obviously, you have not. Else, if you have read the gospels as a whole WITHOUT your preconceived mindset, you will know Jesus is NOT God the Son, but, he is son of God, as is one who is righteous and subservient only to the Only True God or in other words, Jesus is a true servant of God.


                  When did Jesus say he is God the Son (if that’s your understanding of ‘Son Of God’) and when did Jesus preach the Holy Spirit is a person ??


                  That’s what baptism means today to Christians. What does it mean to be baptized in the days of Jesus and John the Baptist ??


                  And you think if someone tell you to fly a kite, it means that someone is asking you to get a kite, find an open field and fly the kite ?? Give me a break !!
                  OK, take a break. Take a few weeks off.

                  They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                    You mean you took and understood those passages literally ???!
                    Absolutely!
                    2 Timothy 3
                    16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by pvb View Post

                      Absolutely!
                      What ??! You took and understood those passages LITERALLY ?? OK, that explains a lot !!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                        You mean you took and understood those passages literally ???!
                        Say what?
                        This absolutely -
                        "The perpetual sacrifice in the Temple occurred daily at 9 am and 3 pm Jesus was crucified at 9 am and at 3 pm darkness came over the land. What were the Jews praying for at 9 am and 3 pm - redemption , forgiveness of sins, the coming of the Messiah, and the resurrection of the dead.

                        Jesus literally shed HIS blood for all."


                        Are getting the various posters confused?
                        2 Timothy 3
                        16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by pvb View Post
                          Say what?
                          This absolutely -
                          "The perpetual sacrifice in the Temple occurred daily at 9 am and 3 pm Jesus was crucified at 9 am and at 3 pm darkness came over the land. What were the Jews praying for at 9 am and 3 pm - redemption , forgiveness of sins, the coming of the Messiah, and the resurrection of the dead.

                          Jesus literally shed HIS blood for all."


                          Are getting the various posters confused?
                          The ‘perpetual sacrifice’ practice is a TRADITION, NOT a practice commanded by God and Jesus DID NOT literally shed his blood for all man’s sin – that’s the misconception of your preachers.

                          Are getting the various preaching from your preachers and scholars confusing you so much that you cannot tell a traditional practice from a divine practice ??

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post

                            The ‘perpetual sacrifice’ practice is a TRADITION, NOT a practice commanded by God and Jesus DID NOT literally shed his blood for all man’s sin – that’s the misconception of your preachers.

                            Are getting the various preaching from your preachers and scholars confusing you so much that you cannot tell a traditional practice from a divine practice ??
                            It seems to me you have been taught many false things by .....who? What kind of training does an Imam receive?

                            Exodus 29
                            38 Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.
                            39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:
                            40 And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering.

                            Numbers 28
                            3 And thou shalt say unto them, This is the offering made by fire which ye shall offer unto the Lord; two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a continual burnt offering.
                            4 The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at even;
                            5 And a tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering, mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil.
                            6 It is a continual burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the Lord.
                            7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the Lord for a drink offering.

                            2 Timothy 3
                            16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by pvb View Post

                              It seems to me you have been taught many false things by .....who? What kind of training does an Imam receive?

                              Exodus 29
                              38 Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.
                              39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:
                              40 And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering.

                              Numbers 28
                              3 And thou shalt say unto them, This is the offering made by fire which ye shall offer unto the Lord; two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a continual burnt offering.
                              4 The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at even;
                              5 And a tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering, mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil.
                              6 It is a continual burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the Lord.
                              7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the Lord for a drink offering.
                              It seems to me you have been falsely preached and taught not to think but just to follow blindly those .....who? What kind of preachers you have if they cannot see what God Almighty TRULY needs ??

                              "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats” – Isaiah 1:11

                              “They will not pour out drink offerings of wine to the LORD, Their sacrifices will not please Him Their bread will be like mourners' bread; All who eat of it will be defiled, For their bread will be for themselves alone; It will not enter the house of the LORD – Hosea 9:4

                              ‘Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams” ‘ – 1 Samuel 15:22

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post

                                It seems to me you have been falsely preached and taught not to think but just to follow blindly those .....who? What kind of preachers you have if they cannot see what God Almighty TRULY needs ??

                                "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats” – Isaiah 1:11

                                “They will not pour out drink offerings of wine to the LORD, Their sacrifices will not please Him Their bread will be like mourners' bread; All who eat of it will be defiled, For their bread will be for themselves alone; It will not enter the house of the LORD – Hosea 9:4

                                ‘Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams” ‘ – 1 Samuel 15:22
                                Read in context - 3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the *** his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
                                4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

                                In Isaiah the sacrifices had become empty rituals.

                                Again read in context -
                                1 Rejoice not, O Israel, for joy, as other people: for thou hast gone a whoring from thy God, thou hast loved a reward upon every cornfloor.

                                Again the rituals were empty.

                                Who can truly - as in obeying the voice of the Lord? NO mortal person can. Christians believe that even our thoughts condemn us - curious do Muslims?

                                Matthew 5
                                27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
                                28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

                                James 2
                                10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
                                2 Timothy 3
                                16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

                                Comment

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