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Getting context in context

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  • Getting context in context

    Hello.
    ok. I have a study question for a Muslim.
    In my church community, we're taught that in order to obtain an accurate understanding of the bible verses we're reading we need to read 20 verses before the specific passage, and 20 verses after the passage.

    How do you, as a Muslim, study the Quran, and the other writings of Islam?

    Thank you.
    God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
    an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

  • #2
    Originally posted by SteveB View Post
    Hello.
    ok. I have a study question for a Muslim.
    In my church community, we're taught that in order to obtain an accurate understanding of the bible verses we're reading we need to read 20 verses before the specific passage, and 20 verses after the passage.

    How do you, as a Muslim, study the Quran, and the other writings of Islam?

    Thank you.
    Dunno if you already know the answer or not but this should be interesting assuming the Muslims choose to address it. .
    Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      Hello.
      ok. I have a study question for a Muslim.
      In my church community, we're taught that in order to obtain an accurate understanding of the bible verses we're reading we need to read 20 verses before the specific passage, and 20 verses after the passage.
      We follow pretty much the same methodology when we read the Koran. We read the surrounding verses. AND we also consider the historical circumstances in which those verses were revealed.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post

        We follow pretty much the same methodology when we read the Koran. We read the surrounding verses. AND we also consider the historical circumstances in which those verses were revealed.
        If you insist some verses are only for specific times in history then they are obviously not relevant for today. Unless of course you are admitting violence is permissible if the circumstances are similar to how the violent verses were relevant in the 7th century ?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by SteveB View Post
          Hello.
          ok. I have a study question for a Muslim.
          In my church community, we're taught that in order to obtain an accurate understanding of the bible verses we're reading we need to read 20 verses before the specific passage, and 20 verses after the passage.

          How do you, as a Muslim, study the Quran, and the other writings of Islam?

          Thank you.
          I'm not a Muslim but I found the Qur'an difficult to interpret because the Qur'an is not in chronological order.

          They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by George View Post

            I'm not a Muslim but I found the Qur'an difficult to interpret because the Qur'an is not in chronological order.
            Hi.
            yeah, that's partly why I asked the question.
            Scorpion appears to have answered it.
            God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
            an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by SteveB View Post
              Hi.
              yeah, that's partly why I asked the question.
              Scorpion appears to have answered it.
              What Scorpion didn't tell us is how the correct [if at all possible] context is determined. He didn't say one word regarding the sunna or the sira. Or the 20% of the Qur'an that makes no sense what-so-ever! He didn't say one word about the doctrine of abrogation! And on and on and on and ............

              Gee .. one wonders why!
              Last edited by Trucker; 06-05-19, 07:47 PM.
              Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Trucker View Post

                What Scorpion didn't tell us is how the correct [if at all possible] context is determined. He didn't say one word regarding the sunna or the sira.
                Or the 20% of the Qur'an that makes no sense what-so-ever! He didn't say one word about the doctrine of abrogation! And on and on and on and ............
                1. The correct context is determined by taking into consideration the surrounding verses and historical context.
                2. What was I supposed to say about the Sunnah?
                3. you didn't get 20% of the Koran. That's your problem.
                4. Abrogation is very much a part of the Christian belief as well. Jesus abrogated a few Old Testament laws. And let's not get into the part where Paul, on his own authority, abrogates the entirety of the Old Testament Law.

                anything else?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post

                  1. The correct context is determined by taking into consideration the surrounding verses and historical context.
                  2. What was I supposed to say about the Sunnah?
                  3. you didn't get 20% of the Koran. That's your problem.
                  4. Abrogation is very much a part of the Christian belief as well. Jesus abrogated a few Old Testament laws. And let's not get into the part where Paul, on his own authority, abrogates the entirety of the Old Testament Law.

                  anything else?
                  What laws do you think Jesus abrogated?

                  As for Apostle Paul, you know that Gentiles were never commanded to follow laws specifically meant for Jews like the food laws, do you not?

                  Does all of this mean Gentiles are without law? -- without guidelines to live a moral life, pleasing to God? -- No, it doesn’t. If you think Apostle Paul "on his own authority abrogated the entirety of the Old Testament Law," you have not read Apostle Paul's Scriptures with understanding.





                  They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post
                    Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                    What Scorpion didn't tell us is how the correct [if at all possible] context is determined. He didn't say one word regarding the sunna or the sira.
                    Or the 20% of the Qur'an that makes no sense what-so-ever! He didn't say one word about the doctrine of abrogation! And on and on and on and ............
                    1. The correct context is determined by taking into consideration the surrounding verses and historical context.
                    Fact is in many cases the context of a Qur'anic passage is determined by referring to external [other than the Qur'an] historical references. You know it and we know it.

                    Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post
                    2. What was I supposed to say about the Sunnah?
                    Isn't the sunnah [and the sira amnong other sources] one of the external sources used in determining the context of a passage in the Qur'an?

                    Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post
                    3. you]didn't get 20% of the Koran. That's your problem.
                    Sir, I don't claim to "get" anything from the Qur'an other than what recognized Islamic sources have established as "getable".

                    .4. Abrogation is very much a part of the Christian belief as well. Jesus abrogated a few Old Testament laws. And let's not get into the part where Paul, on his own authority, abrogates the entirety of the Old Testament Law. [/QUOTE]

                    Jesus fulfilled the OT law, sir. If you don't understand the difference between abrogate and fulfill, that's your problem.

                    Why don't you start a thread on how
                    " ....
                    Paul, on his own authority, abrogates the entirety of the Old Testament Law. ? Go for it! But if/when you do be specific ... chapters and verses.

                    Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post
                    anything else?
                    What is the context of Q 5:32? [I know, but how about you tell us]?
                    Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                      Hi.
                      yeah, that's partly why I asked the question.
                      Scorpion appears to have answered it.
                      Well, let's consider the context of Surah 4:157.

                      Surah 4:155 is speaking of the Jews:
                      Literal
                      (Word by Word)
                      Then because of their breaking (of) their covenant and their disbelief in (the) Signs (of) Allah and their killing (of) the Prophets without any right and their saying, "Our hearts (are) wrapped." Nay, Allah (has) set a seal on their (hearts) for their disbelief so not they believe except a few.
                      Surah 4:156 is speaking of the Jews:
                      Literal
                      (Word by Word)
                      And for their disbelief and their saying against Maryam a slander great.
                      Surah 4:157 is speaking of the Jews:
                      Literal
                      (Word by Word)
                      And for their saying, "Indeed, we killed the Messiah, Isa, son (of) Maryam, (the) Messenger (of) Allah." And not they killed him and not they crucified him but it was made to appear (so) to them. And indeed, those who differ in it (are) surely in doubt about it. Not for them about it [of] (any) knowledge except (the) following (of) assumption. And not they killed him, certainly.
                      Surah 4:158
                      Literal
                      (Word by Word)
                      Nay, Allah raised him towards Him. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.
                      In context Surah 4:157 is saying that the Jews did not kill Jesus nor did they crucify Him (We know that the Romans killed and crucified Jesus.) and yet most Muslims believe Jesus was not killed or crucified by anyone and a look-a-like was crucified and killed in Jesus' place. The context is ignored.


                      They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by George View Post
                        What laws do you think Jesus abrogated?
                        he updated the defintion of murder and adultery. Anyone desiring a woman was guilty of adultery. One guilty of hate was guilty of adultery. He abolished divorce. These were not part of the OT.


                        Originally posted by George View Post
                        As for Apostle Paul, you know that Gentiles were never commanded to follow laws specifically meant for Jews like the food laws, do you not?
                        I'm not just talking about the food laws. Paul literally did away with the entire Old Testament laws....calling it a curse and that it was nailed to the cross.


                        Originally posted by George View Post
                        Does all of this mean Gentiles are without law? -- without guidelines to live a moral life, pleasing to God? -- No, it doesn’t.
                        Where do christian gentiles get their law from?

                        Originally posted by George View Post
                        If you think Apostle Paul "on his own authority abrogated the entirety of the Old Testament Law," you have not read Apostle Paul's Scriptures with understanding.
                        Did Paul instruct christians to follow the Old Testament law or not?

                        What was Paul's opinion on circumcision? Is it in line with the old testament?

                        What was Paul's opinion on eating foods offered to idols? Is it in line with the old testament?




                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Trucker View Post

                          Fact is in many cases the context of a Qur'anic passage is determined by referring to external [other than the Qur'an] historical references. You know it and we know it.
                          I already said that in my original reply to OP.

                          I said "We read the surrounding verses. AND we also consider the historical circumstances in which those verses were revealed."


                          Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                          Isn't the sunnah [and the sira amnong other sources] one of the external sources used in determining the context of a passage in the Qur'an?
                          the Quran is interpreted on the basis of scholarly commentary.
                          The sunnah and sirah are derived from the hadith / oral traditions.


                          Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                          Sir, I don't claim to "get" anything from the Qur'an other than what recognized Islamic sources have established as "getable".
                          Well, you said 20% of the Qur'an makes no sense what-so-ever! That's your problem.


                          Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                          Jesus fulfilled the OT law, sir. If you don't understand the difference between abrogate and fulfill, that's your problem.


                          He also said the law is to be kept until heaven and earth pass away. But I guess that doesn't apply to you because you follow Paul.


                          Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                          Why don't you start a thread on how
                          Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                          " ....
                          Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                          Paul, on his own authority, abrogates the entirety of the Old Testament Law. ? Go for it! But if/when you do be specific ... chapters and verses.
                          ok.

                          Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                          What is the context of Q 5:32? [I know, but how about you tell us]?
                          Cain killed Abel committing the very first murder in human history. That became a lesson to the Israelites, i.e., whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post
                            I already said that in my original reply to OP.

                            I said "We read the surrounding verses. AND we also consider the historical circumstances in which those verses were revealed."
                            But you didn't specify where you were getting your "historical circumstances" from, now did you?

                            But ...
                            .

                            Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post
                            the Quran is interpreted on the basis of scholarly commentary.
                            The sunnah and sirah are derived from the hadith / oral traditions.
                            Actually the SIRAT RASUL ALLAH would be one great example of the sira sirah, seerah [or however one chooses to spell it], right??

                            Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post
                            Well, you said 20% of the Qur'an makes no sense what-so-ever! That's your problem.
                            Actually an alleged holy book [ALLEGEDLY dictated by a confessed liar] that cannot be understood would be YOUR PROBLEM.

                            Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post
                            He also said the law is to be kept until heaven and earth pass away. But I guess that doesn't apply to you because you follow Paul.
                            I have no problem with that at all, sir since the same Scriptures tell us what that law is for.

                            Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post
                            Cain killed Abel committing the very first murder in human history. That became a lesson to the Israelites, i.e.,]whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely
                            But not a lesson for Muhammad?

                            So what is the context according to it's placement in the Qur'an ... the "surrounding verses?? Tell us sir!

                            And if context means as much as you would have us believe then why is not V 32 QUOTED TO US IN CONTEXT WHEN IT'S SO piously quoted by a Muslim while trying to convince some gullible person that Islam is a peaceful religion??
                            Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by sk0rpi0n View Post

                              Cain killed Abel committing the very first murder in human history. That became a lesson to the Israelites, i.e., whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely.
                              Where do we find this lesson in the Bible?

                              How can killing one man be as if "he had slain mankind entirely"?



                              They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

                              Comment

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