Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

Edited to add more information for posters:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Spirit of the law "according to the Scriptures"

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by davbeh2010 View Post

    Yes, of course. Hence the questions. Where exactly are you coming from? Judaism, as you know, is divided. ( Ancient era - Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots) (Modern era - Orthodox, Conservative, Reform) When Moses and the congregation of Israel walked with God in the wilderness, they were united. God provided everything that they needed.

    Which sect of Judaism, in your opinion, would reject the Scriptural proof (i.e. from the Torah) of a Biblical calendar day presented in the op?

    How would each sect of Judaism define, "erev" in (Genesis 1:5), knowing that the sun was not created until day 4?


    The Scriptural proof in the op shows that "erev" (end of daylight - end of dusk) ended the Biblical calendar day from God's Perspective, first, in historical time (Genesis 1:5) (Numbers 9:15,16), and that "erev" (sunset - beginning of dusk) ended the same Biblical calendar day from Jewish man's perspective later in historical time. (Leviticus 22:6-7) (Leviticus 23:32)

    "erev" - first mention - (Genesis 1:5) Only God's Perspective is present. Man is not created until day 6.


    Moses, and the congregation of Israel, were on the same page with God in the wilderness. They both knew what the Biblical calendar day of the week was, and they both knew what the Biblical calendar day of the month was, each and every day. There was no deviation in timing. (i.e. Clarification needed: There is only one natural "dusk" period/day - "beyn ha'arbayim" - from God's Perspective only - from the Spirit of the law only - between the evenings of Jewish man and God - between the "beginning of dusk and the "end of dusk")



    In Christ's service,
    David Behrens
    Sola Gloria Dei!
    Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
    I don't understand what you're talking about. We operate on a lunar calendar.

    I'm quite comfortable with my understanding of my religion. I'm not convinced that a conversation with you will be at all productive because I think we're approaching religion from totally different angles. I don't think you even understand the basics of Jewish thought. If you're confused about what Judaism teaches then you should try soliciting the advice of a qualified Orthodox Rabbi.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Yiddisher Kop View Post

      I don't understand what you're talking about. We operate on a lunar calendar.

      I'm quite comfortable with my understanding of my religion. I'm not convinced that a conversation with you will be at all productive because I think we're approaching religion from totally different angles. I don't think you even understand the basics of Jewish thought. If you're confused about what Judaism teaches then you should try soliciting the advice of a qualified Orthodox Rabbi.


      Originally posted by Yiddisher Kop View Post
      We operate on a lunar calendar.
      Yes, I understand that, but what calendar did Moses and the congregation of Israel operate under, according to the Torah, during their walk with God in the wilderness?

      Shemot 12:1-2 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2008, 2010, 2011 by Artists for Israel International

      And Hashem spoke unto Moshe and Aharon in Eretz Mitzrayim saying,
      2 Hachodesh hazeh (this month) shall be unto you the beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you.



      Originally posted by Yiddisher Kop View Post
      I don't think you even understand the basics of Jewish thought.
      Devar 30:6 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2008, 2010, 2011 by Artists for Israel International
      6 And Hashem Eloheicha will circumcise thine lev, and the lev of thy zera, to love Hashem Eloheicha bekhol levavcha uvekhol nafshecha; that thou mayest live [Yn 3:3].

      Hashem Eloheicha circumcised my heart. I know that the LORD God blessed me abundantly, and continues to do so.

      I understand where some Jewish thought today is contrary to God's commands in the Torah. (non-biblical worship practices) I understand where some Jewish thought today is contrary to Moses' and the congregation of Israel's walk in unity with God in the wilderness. Not to be biased, I also understand where all Biblical faith perspectives place some of their faith contrary to God's commands in the Scriptures, which also includes (Eastern Christianity/Western Christianity) non-biblical worship practices. (i.e. oral tradition(s) of men that "nullify" the word of God.)

      In other words, the followers of Judaism today, and the followers of Christianity today (Eastern Christianity/Western Christianity), both quench the Ruach Elohim in their non-biblical worship practices today. Why? Because the followers of Judaism today, and the followers of Christianity today (Eastern Christianity/Western Christianity) follow the extra-biblical advice of men, rather than seeking the wisdom and knowledge of God, their Savior, on Earth as in Heaven.

      Yeshayah 45:21 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2008, 2010, 2011 by Artists for Israel International
      21 Declare ye, and approach; yes, let them take counsel together. Who hath made this known from mikedem (from olden time)? Who hath preached it from long ago? Have not I, Hashem? And there is no other Elohim besides Me: El Tzaddik and Moshi’a; there is none besides Me.

      If anyone wants to walk in unity with the God of the Scriptures, as Moses and the congregation of Israel demonstrated in the wilderness, then one should not walk contrary to God's commands. If anyone wants to walk in unity with the God of the Scriptures today, then one should not break God's covenant with the day, and one should not break God's covenant with the night. Moses, and the congregation of Israel walked in unity with the God of the Scriptures. Moses, and the congregation of Israel did not break God's covenant with the day, nor did Moses, and the congregation of Israel break God's covenant with the night, during their walk together in unity in the wilderness.


      Originally posted by Yiddisher Kop View Post
      If you're confused about what Judaism teaches then you should try soliciting the advice of a qualified Orthodox Rabbi.

      One should not seek first the advice of a qualified Orthodox Rabbi. One should seek first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness. This truth applies to all sects of Judaism, and this truth applies to all sects of Christianity. There is only one true God, on Earth as in Heaven. There is only one true kingdom of God, on Earth as in Heaven.

      What makes an Orthodox Rabbi more holier than you? In other words, less than 100% holy, is not greater than, less than 100% holy. At best, 100% holy is equal to 100% holy.

      God commands,

      Vayikra 11:45 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2008, 2010, 2011 by Artists for Israel International
      45 For I am Hashem that bringeth you up out of Eretz Mitzrayim, to be for you as Elohim: ye shall therefore be kadoshim, for I am kadosh.

      Vayikra 19:2 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2008, 2010, 2011 by Artists for Israel International
      2 Speak unto kol Adat Bnei Yisroel, and say unto them, Ye shall be kedoshim (holy ones): for I Hashem Eloheichem am kadosh.




      In Christ's service,
      David Behrens
      Sola Gloria Dei!
      Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by davbeh2010 View Post





        Yes, I understand that, but what calendar did Moses and the congregation of Israel operate under, according to the Torah, during their walk with God in the wilderness?

        Shemot 12:1-2 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2008, 2010, 2011 by Artists for Israel International

        And Hashem spoke unto Moshe and Aharon in Eretz Mitzrayim saying,
        2 Hachodesh hazeh (this month) shall be unto you the beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you.





        Devar 30:6 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2008, 2010, 2011 by Artists for Israel International
        6 And Hashem Eloheicha will circumcise thine lev, and the lev of thy zera, to love Hashem Eloheicha bekhol levavcha uvekhol nafshecha; that thou mayest live [Yn 3:3].

        Hashem Eloheicha circumcised my heart. I know that the LORD God blessed me abundantly, and continues to do so.

        I understand where some Jewish thought today is contrary to God's commands in the Torah. (non-biblical worship practices) I understand where some Jewish thought today is contrary to Moses' and the congregation of Israel's walk in unity with God in the wilderness. Not to be biased, I also understand where all Biblical faith perspectives place some of their faith contrary to God's commands in the Scriptures, which also includes (Eastern Christianity/Western Christianity) non-biblical worship practices. (i.e. oral tradition(s) of men that "nullify" the word of God.)

        In other words, the followers of Judaism today, and the followers of Christianity today (Eastern Christianity/Western Christianity), both quench the Ruach Elohim in their non-biblical worship practices today. Why? Because the followers of Judaism today, and the followers of Christianity today (Eastern Christianity/Western Christianity) follow the extra-biblical advice of men, rather than seeking the wisdom and knowledge of God, their Savior, on Earth as in Heaven.

        Yeshayah 45:21 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2008, 2010, 2011 by Artists for Israel International
        21 Declare ye, and approach; yes, let them take counsel together. Who hath made this known from mikedem (from olden time)? Who hath preached it from long ago? Have not I, Hashem? And there is no other Elohim besides Me: El Tzaddik and Moshi’a; there is none besides Me.

        If anyone wants to walk in unity with the God of the Scriptures, as Moses and the congregation of Israel demonstrated in the wilderness, then one should not walk contrary to God's commands. If anyone wants to walk in unity with the God of the Scriptures today, then one should not break God's covenant with the day, and one should not break God's covenant with the night. Moses, and the congregation of Israel walked in unity with the God of the Scriptures. Moses, and the congregation of Israel did not break God's covenant with the day, nor did Moses, and the congregation of Israel break God's covenant with the night, during their walk together in unity in the wilderness.





        One should not seek first the advice of a qualified Orthodox Rabbi. One should seek first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness. This truth applies to all sects of Judaism, and this truth applies to all sects of Christianity. There is only one true God, on Earth as in Heaven. There is only one true kingdom of God, on Earth as in Heaven.

        What makes an Orthodox Rabbi more holier than you? In other words, less than 100% holy, is not greater than, less than 100% holy. At best, 100% holy is equal to 100% holy.

        God commands,

        Vayikra 11:45 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2008, 2010, 2011 by Artists for Israel International
        45 For I am Hashem that bringeth you up out of Eretz Mitzrayim, to be for you as Elohim: ye shall therefore be kadoshim, for I am kadosh.

        Vayikra 19:2 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2008, 2010, 2011 by Artists for Israel International
        2 Speak unto kol Adat Bnei Yisroel, and say unto them, Ye shall be kedoshim (holy ones): for I Hashem Eloheichem am kadosh.




        In Christ's service,
        David Behrens
        Sola Gloria Dei!
        Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
        Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) is really a Christian bible. Messianic Jews use it, but they're ultimately practicing Christians. It seems like it's really just a KJV with Hebrew words substituted for English ones to make the reader feel that it's Jewishy. It's definitely not Jewish. The OJB is not produced or authorized by any mainstream Jewish movements.

        I stand by my previous comment. I think we're approaching religion from two different angles.

        Originally posted by davbeh2010 View Post
        What makes an Orthodox Rabbi more holier than you? In other words, less than 100% holy, is not greater than, less than 100% holy. At best, 100% holy is equal to 100% holy.
        Case in point.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Yiddisher Kop View Post

          Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) is really a Christian bible. Messianic Jews use it, but they're ultimately practicing Christians. It seems like it's really just a KJV with Hebrew words substituted for English ones to make the reader feel that it's Jewishy. It's definitely not Jewish. The OJB is not produced or authorized by any mainstream Jewish movements.

          .
          Thank you for pointing that out! It is a Christian bible, and I personally find it really annoying having all the Hebrew thrown into it in an attempt to make it more authentic. Either use English,
          or use Hebrew, but stop with the mish mash of the two.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by TripleT View Post

            Thank you for pointing that out! It is a Christian bible, and I personally find it really annoying having all the Hebrew thrown into it in an attempt to make it more authentic. Either use English,
            or use Hebrew, but stop with the mish mash of the two.
            I believe that the Christian producers discovered that the OJB sells with Christians who are trying to embrace more Jewish practices into their religious lives. This way they get the consistent KJV message they're comfortable with and accustomed to, but they've peppered it with a little Yiddish or Hebrew to really ram the Jewishness down the reader's throat.

            I've read a few passages from the OJB bible. It reads really hookey and creepy to me like someone is trying to play "dress up" as a Jew and maybe convince others that it's an authentic Jewish book. It also blurs the lines to people who don't realize that the Hebrew in Jewish bibles has been maintained in its original language but the translations of translations of translations that are used to produce the KJV bible resulted messaging that is quite skewed from the original Hebrew. Presenting this book as Jewish -when it is not- misinforms readers by making them believe that the Hebrew Bible and the Christian Bible say the same thing when clearly they do not.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Yiddisher Kop View Post
              but they've peppered it with a little Yiddish or Hebrew to really ram the Jewishness down the reader's throat.
              Yiddish? Really? Wow, a language that obviously did not exist when the Torah was given. It definitely reeks of "lets dress up and play Jew".

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by TripleT View Post

                Yiddish? Really? Wow, a language that obviously did not exist when the Torah was given. It definitely reeks of "lets dress up and play Jew".
                I want to be fair in my characterization, because I have watched Youtube videos of messianic services and I have personally heard a heavy mixing of Yiddish in their English with Hebrew services. When I revisited some of these videos, I had to concede that the Yiddish was likely interjected by the Christian Rabbi –still to sound more Jewishy, but it was probably not from the source he was reading.

                The tenor of these services seems to be, “Look at how Jewishy we are! We have glittery yarmulkes and gaudy tallit. We must be real authorities on the subject!” Meanwhile, they flub the language, make a mockery of the Jewish service and (as I said above) seem to be doing little more than dressing up and playing Jewish. The Christian public doesn’t really know the difference, and I feel bad that they’re getting such a schlocky Jewish experience if they’re attending for the purpose of trying to reconnect with what they think are their Jewish roots. These faux Rabbis are raking in big bucks on the ignorance of the Christians who they’re seeking to impress. –But on the other hand, buyers beware. Maybe it was their job to do their homework in the first place.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by TripleT View Post

                  Yiddish? Really? Wow, a language that obviously did not exist when the Torah was given. It definitely reeks of "lets dress up and play Jew".
                  Wrong person. Sorry.
                  Anguished history: Ancient literacy: "Paper, writing utensils, the very act of writing was rare and dear."

                  Apparent German requests to US for military aid: "
                  I hope our young men and women in uniform shrug their shoulders next time you come calling"

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Yiddisher Kop View Post

                    I want to be fair in my characterization, because I have watched Youtube videos of messianic services and I have personally heard a heavy mixing of Yiddish in their English with Hebrew services. When I revisited some of these videos, I had to concede that the Yiddish was likely interjected by the Christian Rabbi –still to sound more Jewishy, but it was probably not from the source he was reading.

                    The tenor of these services seems to be, “Look at how Jewishy we are! We have glittery yarmulkes and gaudy tallit. We must be real authorities on the subject!” Meanwhile, they flub the language, make a mockery of the Jewish service and (as I said above) seem to be doing little more than dressing up and playing Jewish. The Christian public doesn’t really know the difference, and I feel bad that they’re getting such a schlocky Jewish experience if they’re attending for the purpose of trying to reconnect with what they think are their Jewish roots. These faux Rabbis are raking in big bucks on the ignorance of the Christians who they’re seeking to impress. –But on the other hand, buyers beware. Maybe it was their job to do their homework in the first place.
                    It's the playbox. Affecting Jewish ideas and dress codes while believing the god walked and talked on the earth in human guise. A Hellenistic idea of course, and nothing to do with Judaism.
                    Anguished history: Ancient literacy: "Paper, writing utensils, the very act of writing was rare and dear."

                    Apparent German requests to US for military aid: "
                    I hope our young men and women in uniform shrug their shoulders next time you come calling"

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by TripleT View Post

                      Yiddish? Really? Wow, a language that obviously did not exist when the Torah was given. It definitely reeks of "lets dress up and play Jew".
                      Don't be so disrespectful of the Jewish people, if for no other reason than that you should love your neighbor as yourself.
                      Open Heart, Hebrew Catholic
                      “God never abandoned his covenant with Israel" Pope Francis
                      "It is unthinkable that [the Church] would claim to replace Israel. She is not another Israel." Cardinal Lustiger

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by davbeh2010 View Post
                        On Day 1 of Creation, only God's Perspective is present.

                        You have God, light, darkness, day, night, morning, and evening.

                        Morning and evening are demarcation points of the period called "day" from God's Perspective. From God's Perspective morning is the beginning of the day "light", and evening is the end of the day "light".

                        Draw a circle. Draw a line from the nine o'clock position to the three o'clock position cutting the circle in half. The top half is God's Day, the bottom half is God's Night. Write in Light next to Day, write in Darkness next to Night. At the nine o'clock position write in morning, at the three o'clock position write in evening.

                        Your Scriptural proof for the top half of the circle is (Genesis 1:5), with the morning and evening demarcation points attached to the Day.

                        Your Scriptural proof for the bottom half of the circle is (Numbers 9:15,16), from evening to until morning, a pillar of fire by night. Night -equals- Darkness (no light, no day)


                        God alone is in control of the light switch in (Numbers 9:15,16), not man.

                        God alone is in control of the light switch in (Genesis 1:5), not man. ]


                        (Note: Any Biblical calendar day interpretation can be viewed from two perspectives, 1. God's Perspective (Spirit of the law - (morning to end of daylight) 2. Jewish man's perspective (Letter of the law - sunset to sunset). After the sun was created on the fourth day, notice that "beyn ha'arbayim" always ended the Biblical calendar day from God's Perspective (Spirit of the law), on the fourteenth calendar day (light) of the first month, between the evenings of "sunset" (Jewish man's evening) and "end of daylight" (God's evening). (Exodus 12:6; Leviticus 23:5; Numbers 9:3))



                        In Christ's service,
                        David Behrens
                        Sola Gloria Dei!
                        Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
                        God is in control of everything according to our Creator's program.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Yiddisher Kop View Post

                          I believe that the Christian producers discovered that the OJB sells with Christians who are trying to embrace more Jewish practices into their religious lives. This way they get the consistent KJV message they're comfortable with and accustomed to, but they've peppered it with a little Yiddish or Hebrew to really ram the Jewishness down the reader's throat.

                          I've read a few passages from the OJB bible. It reads really hookey and creepy to me like someone is trying to play "dress up" as a Jew and maybe convince others that it's an authentic Jewish book. It also blurs the lines to people who don't realize that the Hebrew in Jewish bibles has been maintained in its original language but the translations of translations of translations that are used to produce the KJV bible resulted messaging that is quite skewed from the original Hebrew. Presenting this book as Jewish -when it is not- misinforms readers by making them believe that the Hebrew Bible and the Christian Bible say the same thing when clearly they do not.

                          Yiddisher Kop :

                          - - - I do agree that most of the modern Bible versions are published with a view to making lots of money. But why do you find it necessary to attribute bad motives from the start ? Is it not possible that the insertion of Jewish words into the English text might make it easier to discern the correct meaning of a passage ?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by chtek View Post


                            Yiddisher Kop :

                            - - - I do agree that most of the modern Bible versions are published with a view to making lots of money. But why do you find it necessary to attribute bad motives from the start ? Is it not possible that the insertion of Jewish words into the English text might make it easier to discern the correct meaning of a passage ?
                            The OJB and the KJV translations do not match the original Hebrew. Using Yiddish or Hebrew doesn't change the fact that there are significant translation errors in the Christian texts. In fact, using Hebrew to an uneducated audience deceives them thinking that the OJB is an authentic reflection of the Hebrew scriptures or that the "rabbi" is more learned in Jewish scripture that he or she actually is.

                            It does not clarify any passages. It's deception.

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X