Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Does anyone know anything about something called "The Fast Of The Firstborn"?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by The Barrd View Post

    I honestly didn't think water would be forbidden...
    It is. A complete fast. Going without water is I think the hardest part.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by TripleT View Post

      It is. A complete fast. Going without water is I think the hardest part.
      That is why it is nonsense. The body requires hydration, or else there may be serious complications, such as sun stroke.
      MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

      1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

      2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

      3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

      4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by The Barrd View Post

        I honestly didn't think water would be forbidden...
        Please don't take offense, but it doesn't matter what you think. It matters what the rabbis have ruled, per Deuteronomy 17: 8-13. The Yom Kippur fast is one day Sundown the first day until sundown on the second day) with no food or drink (including water) at all. Exceptions are made for people who have health conditions, in fact they are required to eat. There are also fasts that are lesser. For example Tisha b'av means no mean or wine.
        Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

        "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

          Please don't take offense, but it doesn't matter what you think. It matters what the rabbis have ruled, per Deuteronomy 17: 8-13. The Yom Kippur fast is one day Sundown the first day until sundown on the second day) with no food or drink (including water) at all. Exceptions are made for people who have health conditions, in fact they are required to eat. There are also fasts that are lesser. For example Tisha b'av means no mean or wine.
          Your post makes it seem as if you are in favor of applying Judiazing works to one's salvation
          MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

          1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

          2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

          3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

          4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by john t View Post

            That is why it is nonsense. The body requires hydration, or else there may be serious complications, such as sun stroke.
            Thank you.
            I suspect someone might be....uh....stretching the truth just a bit?
            God Who was made flesh for me and nailed upon a lonely tree
            What gift can I bring that would suffice to repay such great sacrifice?
            All that I am I lay at Your throne. Make me, Lord, Your very Own.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by The Barrd View Post

              Thank you.
              I suspect someone might be....uh....stretching the truth just a bit?
              Not intentionally, but in reality, that seems to be the case.

              That is why I posted this :

              Your post makes it seem as if you are in favor of applying Judiazing works to one's salvation
              It is ALWAYS tempting to "add works to salvation" . As a child in a UMC church, I remember my mom saying that "she felt better getting communion when she has to get up out of her seat, and approach the rail to get communion." (YIKES!)

              Actually, what the poster seems to be doing is recreating the Galatians heresy. At one point the adult gentile men were being told that they needed to get circumcised because the circumcision rite (Berith) was considered the entrance into the Abrahamic Covenant and then Judaism was the entrance to being a Christian. Therein lies the inherent danger of "Messianic Judaism"

              If is born a Jew, (having a Jewish mother) and raised as a Jew, then IMHO, there is nothing wrong with practicing Judaism as an adjunct to Christianity and salvation by grace alone is taught. The problem comes when the well-meaning but ill-informed wish to entrap the Gentiles into "playing Jewish, and acting as a s if you were circumcised by a mohel".

              In researching the answer, I ran across this from a Jewish site, and in the course of the discussion at hand, it is quite pertinent:
              .
              G‑d commanded the Jewish people (Leviticus 12:2), “On the eighth day, the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.” The act of circumcision, marking the completion of the body, is a human act. This teaches us that our spiritual, emotional, moral and ethical perfection requires human effort. G‑d cannot do it for us. (emphasis added)

              There are many partnerships into which a person will enter during his or her lifetime. Most of them, at some point, will come to a natural end, or will be broken by one of the parties. The brit, ritual circumcision, is a symbol of our partnership with G‑d. Etched in the flesh of our physical bodies, the covenant will never end or be forgotten. This is known as a brit milah(or bris).
              https://www.chabad.org/library/artic...n-Ceremony.htm

              That is why the "Jewish Christianity" movement is so inherently dangerous; it tramples on and obliterates free, unmerited grace.
              MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

              1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

              2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

              3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

              4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                Please don't take offense, but it doesn't matter what you think. It matters what the rabbis have ruled, per Deuteronomy 17: 8-13.
                .
                Deuteronomy 17: 8 “If any case arises requiring decision between one kind of homicide and another, one kind of legal right and another, or one kind of assault and another, any case within your towns that is too difficult for you, then you shall arise and go up to the place that the Lord your God will choose.
                9 And you shall come to the Levitical priests and to the judge who is in office in those days, and you shall consult them, and they shall declare to you the decision.
                10 Then you shall do according to what they declare to you from that place that the Lord will choose. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they direct you.
                11 According to the instructions that they give you, and according to the decision which they pronounce to you, you shall do. You shall not turn aside from the verdict that they declare to you, either to the right hand or to the left.
                12 The man who acts presumptuously by not obeying the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall purge the evil from Israel.
                13 And all the people shall hear and fear and not act presumptuously again.
                ESV

                Pardon my outrage, but that statement of yours which I quoted above is presumptuous balderdash!!

                In the references you gave, there is ZERO mentioned about either a fast or water.. More to the point, you FAIL to cite what Rabbi, and in what source is the opinion written. My guess is that it is in the mysterious sects of Judaism, such as the one to which Madonna belongs.

                Either you cited the wring passage, or else someone duped you with a quote taken out of context. Whatever the case, I sincerely believe that your source is blatantly in error. Therefore, EVERYTHING ELSE that your source states should similarly be called into question.

                Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                The Yom Kippur fast is one day Sundown the first day until sundown on the second day) with no food or drink (including water) at all. Exceptions are made for people who have health conditions, in fact they are required to eat. There are also fasts that are lesser. For example Tisha b'av means no mean or wine.
                Please cite this stipulation from the Bible.

                According to Chabad, a sect of Orthodox Judaism, all eating and drinking is forbidden on Yom Kippur — water included. If you are a Christian, you cannot consider yourself an Orthodox Jew, let alone a member of that sect.

                Sincerely, I fear that you have been beguiled.
                MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                Comment


                • #23
                  @Open Heart

                  Some more data from wikipedia. I do not use them much, but the site is good in a pinch:
                  .
                  Chabad Hasidic philosophy focuses on religious and spiritual concepts such as God, the soul, and the meaning of the Jewish commandments. Classical Judaic writings and Jewish mysticism, especially the Zohar and the Kabbalah of Rabbi Isaac Luria, are frequently cited in Chabad works. These texts are used both as sources of Chabad teachings and as material requiring interpretation by Chabad authors. Chabad philosophy is rooted in the teachings of Rabbis Yisroel ben Eliezer, (the Baal Shem Tov, founder of Hasidism) and Dovber ben Avraham, the "Maggid of Mezritch" (Rabbi Yisroel's successor).[citation needed]

                  Rabbi Shneur Zalman's teachings formed the basis of Chabad philosophy, as expanded by succeeding generations. Many Chabad activities today are understood as applications of Shneur Zalman's teachings
                  .
                  You see that is the same sort of stuff That Madonna follows. It is anglicized as Kabbalah.
                  .
                  Kabbalah originally developed within the realm of Jewish tradition, and kabbalists often use classical Jewish sources to explain and demonstrate its esoteric teachings. These teachings are held by followers in Judaism to define the inner meaning of both the Hebrew Bible and traditional rabbinic literature and their formerly concealed transmitted dimension, as well as to explain the significance of Jewish religious observances.[5]

                  Traditional practitioners believe its earliest origins pre-date world religions, forming the primordial blueprint for Creation's philosophies, religions, sciences, arts, and political systems.[6] Historically, Kabbalah emerged, after earlier forms of Jewish mysticism, in 12th- to 13th-century Southern France and Spain, becoming reinterpreted in the Jewish mystical renaissance of 16th-century Ottoman Palestine. Isaac Luria is considered the father of contemporary Kabbalah. It was popularised in the form of Hasidic Judaism from the 18th century onwards. Twentieth-century interest in Kabbalah has inspired cross-denominational Jewish renewal and contributed to wider non-Jewish contemporary spirituality, as well as engaging its flourishing emergence and historical re-emphasis through newly established academic investigation

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah
                  .
                  If any of this "fits your beliefs", indeed you have been misled.
                  MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                  1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                  2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                  3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                  4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by john t View Post
                    @Open Heart

                    Some more data from wikipedia. I do not use them much, but the site is good in a pinch:
                    .
                    Chabad Hasidic philosophy focuses on religious and spiritual concepts such as God, the soul, and the meaning of the Jewish commandments. Classical Judaic writings and Jewish mysticism, especially the Zohar and the Kabbalah of Rabbi Isaac Luria, are frequently cited in Chabad works. These texts are used both as sources of Chabad teachings and as material requiring interpretation by Chabad authors. Chabad philosophy is rooted in the teachings of Rabbis Yisroel ben Eliezer, (the Baal Shem Tov, founder of Hasidism) and Dovber ben Avraham, the "Maggid of Mezritch" (Rabbi Yisroel's successor).[citation needed]

                    Rabbi Shneur Zalman's teachings formed the basis of Chabad philosophy, as expanded by succeeding generations. Many Chabad activities today are understood as applications of Shneur Zalman's teachings
                    .
                    You see that is the same sort of stuff That Madonna follows. It is anglicized as Kabbalah.
                    .
                    Kabbalah originally developed within the realm of Jewish tradition, and kabbalists often use classical Jewish sources to explain and demonstrate its esoteric teachings. These teachings are held by followers in Judaism to define the inner meaning of both the Hebrew Bible and traditional rabbinic literature and their formerly concealed transmitted dimension, as well as to explain the significance of Jewish religious observances.[5]

                    Traditional practitioners believe its earliest origins pre-date world religions, forming the primordial blueprint for Creation's philosophies, religions, sciences, arts, and political systems.[6] Historically, Kabbalah emerged, after earlier forms of Jewish mysticism, in 12th- to 13th-century Southern France and Spain, becoming reinterpreted in the Jewish mystical renaissance of 16th-century Ottoman Palestine. Isaac Luria is considered the father of contemporary Kabbalah. It was popularised in the form of Hasidic Judaism from the 18th century onwards. Twentieth-century interest in Kabbalah has inspired cross-denominational Jewish renewal and contributed to wider non-Jewish contemporary spirituality, as well as engaging its flourishing emergence and historical re-emphasis through newly established academic investigation

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah
                    .
                    If any of this "fits your beliefs", indeed you have been misled.
                    I am not into the Kabbalah. I have heard a few stories here and there -- enough to recognize that the mystics it records, such as the Baal Shem Tov, have seen the same things I have seen. But the problem with ecstatic mystical experiences is that they are impossible to put into words. As soon as you open your mouth or put a pen to paper, you loose important parts of the experience or the vision, and it gets warped in some way. Then on top of that, those who have never had an experience try to interpret, and they have no clue, and inevitably butcher what you are trying to teach them. Therefore the writings in the Kabbalah are flawed, just as all mystical writings are flawed. The Tao which can be expressed is not the eternal Tao.
                    1. I have no need to read the writings of the mystics since I myself have mystical experiences aka I understand from first hand experience,led by the HS.
                    2. I don't try to teach others, since it is impossible. Better to remain silent.
                    Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                    "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by john t View Post
                      @Open Heart

                      Some more data from wikipedia. I do not use them much, but the site is good in a pinch:
                      .
                      Chabad Hasidic philosophy focuses on religious and spiritual concepts such as God, the soul, and the meaning of the Jewish commandments. Classical Judaic writings and Jewish mysticism, especially the Zohar and the Kabbalah of Rabbi Isaac Luria, are frequently cited in Chabad works. These texts are used both as sources of Chabad teachings and as material requiring interpretation by Chabad authors. Chabad philosophy is rooted in the teachings of Rabbis Yisroel ben Eliezer, (the Baal Shem Tov, founder of Hasidism) and Dovber ben Avraham, the "Maggid of Mezritch" (Rabbi Yisroel's successor).[citation needed]

                      Rabbi Shneur Zalman's teachings formed the basis of Chabad philosophy, as expanded by succeeding generations. Many Chabad activities today are understood as applications of Shneur Zalman's teachings
                      .
                      You see that is the same sort of stuff That Madonna follows. It is anglicized as Kabbalah.
                      .
                      Kabbalah originally developed within the realm of Jewish tradition, and kabbalists often use classical Jewish sources to explain and demonstrate its esoteric teachings. These teachings are held by followers in Judaism to define the inner meaning of both the Hebrew Bible and traditional rabbinic literature and their formerly concealed transmitted dimension, as well as to explain the significance of Jewish religious observances.[5]

                      Traditional practitioners believe its earliest origins pre-date world religions, forming the primordial blueprint for Creation's philosophies, religions, sciences, arts, and political systems.[6] Historically, Kabbalah emerged, after earlier forms of Jewish mysticism, in 12th- to 13th-century Southern France and Spain, becoming reinterpreted in the Jewish mystical renaissance of 16th-century Ottoman Palestine. Isaac Luria is considered the father of contemporary Kabbalah. It was popularised in the form of Hasidic Judaism from the 18th century onwards. Twentieth-century interest in Kabbalah has inspired cross-denominational Jewish renewal and contributed to wider non-Jewish contemporary spirituality, as well as engaging its flourishing emergence and historical re-emphasis through newly established academic investigation

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah
                      .
                      If any of this "fits your beliefs", indeed you have been misled.

                      Hi, Honey....I'm home! Didja miss me?
                      God Who was made flesh for me and nailed upon a lonely tree
                      What gift can I bring that would suffice to repay such great sacrifice?
                      All that I am I lay at Your throne. Make me, Lord, Your very Own.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        The Fast of the Firstborn is a practice usually honored in the breach. On the day of the first Passover dinner (that is, the morning just before the first night of Passover), all men who were the first born children are expected to fast during the day (that is, a daylight fast that ends with the Passover dinner). This is as a commemoration of the Hebrew first born being spared in the final Plague of Egypt. Their younger brothers are exempt from this fast. There are some additional details which I think are not universal, such as exempting first surviving children if there had been a previous stillbirth or miscarriage or an older sister, but I think most of those details are not universal in acceptance.

                        However, one is spared from fasting if one participates in a Talmud lesson that concludes a tractate. So - this is rather embarrassing to admit - a great many men who never bother with weekday morning services the rest of the year show up for that morning service, even though there has been no Talmud lesson the rest of the year, the rabbi will present on this morning a lesson explaining the last few pages of a Talmud tractate, and when he is finished the whole crowd will join in a meal to celebrate the conclusion of a tractate, and thus all the participants are relieved of having to fast for the remainder of the day.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Shoonra View Post
                          The Fast of the Firstborn is a practice usually honored in the breach. On the day of the first Passover dinner (that is, the morning just before the first night of Passover), all men who were the first born children are expected to fast during the day (that is, a daylight fast that ends with the Passover dinner). This is as a commemoration of the Hebrew first born being spared in the final Plague of Egypt. Their younger brothers are exempt from this fast. There are some additional details which I think are not universal, such as exempting first surviving children if there had been a previous stillbirth or miscarriage or an older sister, but I think most of those details are not universal in acceptance.

                          However, one is spared from fasting if one participates in a Talmud lesson that concludes a tractate. So - this is rather embarrassing to admit - a great many men who never bother with weekday morning services the rest of the year show up for that morning service, even though there has been no Talmud lesson the rest of the year, the rabbi will present on this morning a lesson explaining the last few pages of a Talmud tractate, and when he is finished the whole crowd will join in a meal to celebrate the conclusion of a tractate, and thus all the participants are relieved of having to fast for the remainder of the day.
                          Of course, God doesn't realize what they are up to....

                          r-I-I-g-h-t
                          God Who was made flesh for me and nailed upon a lonely tree
                          What gift can I bring that would suffice to repay such great sacrifice?
                          All that I am I lay at Your throne. Make me, Lord, Your very Own.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X