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  • #16
    Originally posted by TripleT View Post

    Even Reform Judaism rejects the Messianic faith....that's going some.
    While Orthodoxy may have differences with Reform, they accept Reform as a part of the Jewish community. Every branch of
    Judaism is in agreement that the Messianic faith is outside of it. It's a part of the Christian community, not ours.
    You are playing with words. The Orthodox accept Reform JEWS as fellow JEWS, BUT they certainly don't accept Reform Judaism as a Judaism. Thus my point.
    Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

    "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

      #7
      "I believe by complete faith that the prophesy of Moses our teacher, may peace rest upon him, was true and that he was the father of all prophets that preceded him as well as all that came after him."




      "The baptism of John— where was it from? From heaven or from men?”
      And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ 26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the multitude, for they count John as a prophet.”

      If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’'s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
      41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you— - Moses, in whom you trust. 46For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

      What does belief in Yeshua have to do with today's Judaism then?
      You are bringing up a completely different issue. My point stands that MJ adheres to the 13 principles.
      Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

      "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by open heart View Post
        mj adheres to the 13 principles.
        I find different lists that word them in different ways.
        Is there a list somewhere that you'd recommend for what you accept as the principles?

        You are bringing up a completely different issue
        I just find the argument of what's a Judaism and acceptable Jewish belief interesting....
        I don't know how they are all reconciled to each other, or can be.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

          You are playing with words. The Orthodox accept Reform JEWS as fellow JEWS, BUT they certainly don't accept Reform Judaism as a Judaism. Thus my point.
          My point is that even the most liberal branch of Judaism rejects the Messianic faith. Not just Orthodoxy. Plus a big part of being Jewish is being a part of the community. Those Jews who accept Jesus are on the outside of the community. However, from what I have seen the vast majority involved in the Messianic faith are not halachaly Jewish and would not be a part of the community anyway....so their exclusion should not be an issue.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by TripleT View Post

            My point is that even the most liberal branch of Judaism rejects the Messianic faith. Not just Orthodoxy.
            Irrelevant. It's the same principle.

            Plus a big part of being Jewish is being a part of the community.
            Of course it is!!! We love to schmooze. And so many of the mitzvot are communal. I'll be singing in the choir at Synogogue on Shabbat tomorrow. My synagogue is actually quite open, with a lot of Christians attending, some intermarried, and others visiting from local colleges, and a couple just permanent fixtures of the volunteer choir. I'm a little more controversial to those who know about me, since I'm both a Jew and a Christian, but I never bring up Jesus. When I'm at synagogue, I'm strictly there to worship as a Jew with fellow Jews.

            The idea that the Hashivenu branch of MJ (of UMJC) has (which I support) is that MJ is mainly for believing Jews. Sure there will always be some Gentiles, mostly intermarried. And there are exceptional Gentiles that have a special affinity for Israel and Torah. We believe these Gentiles are called to halakhic conversion to Judaism, and UMJC offers this. Meaning that they become Jews. Thus, the MJ synagogue IS a Jewish community gathering together. As for the vast majority of Gentile believers in Yeshua, that's what the Gentile churches are for.
            Last edited by Open Heart; 03-16-18, 06:57 AM.
            Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

            "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

              I find different lists that word them in different ways.
              Is there a list somewhere that you'd recommend for what you accept as the principles?
              They are all translated from the same text, so they can't be that different. Try reading several different ones, and see if you can't figure out what they are all trying to say. It's kind of like looking at three shades of yellow, and realizing that they are all yellow.

              Here is the actual text and what I think is a very close translation: http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/...rinciples.html

              After reading that page carefully, I'd say the only principle that MJ's have difficulty with is #7, that Moses is the chief prophet, because it includes of those who came later.

              As to God's unity, I believe the Oneness of God expressed in Trinitarianism is enough.

              As to God's non-corporealness, we DO believe in this, actually, but it is when we speak of God as in referring to God the Father.
              Last edited by Open Heart; 03-16-18, 07:09 AM.
              Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

              "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                I'm a little more controversial to those who know about me, since I'm both a Jew and a Christian, but I never bring up Jesus. When I'm at synagogue, I'm strictly there to worship as a Jew with fellow Jews.
                .
                Didn,t Paul go into the synagogues and preach the Gospel?

                Without Love we are nothing more than noise makers.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by spokenword View Post
                  Didn,t Paul go into the synagogues and preach the Gospel?
                  Paul went to the Synagogues as a missionary. I'm not there as a missionary. I'm there to worship God with my fellow Jews. It would not behoove me to disrupt the prayers.
                  Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                  "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                    Paul went to the Synagogues as a missionary. I'm not there as a missionary. I'm there to worship God with my fellow Jews. It would not behoove me to disrupt the prayers.
                    Jesus said "No one can come to the Father but through Me." Are Jews exempt? How about unless you are Born Again no one will see heaven? Did Jesus mean everyone except for the Jewish people? Waiting for your answer.

                    Without Love we are nothing more than noise makers.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by spokenword View Post
                      Jesus said "No one can come to the Father but through Me." Are Jews exempt? How about unless you are Born Again no one will see heaven? Did Jesus mean everyone except for the Jewish people? Waiting for your answer.
                      Irrelevant to my point. I'm not there to evangelize. I'm there to worship with my people.
                      Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                      "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                        Irrelevant to my point. I'm not there to evangelize. I'm there to worship with my people.
                        So go and preach the Gospel does not apply to you when you fellowship with your brethren. Interesting.

                        Without Love we are nothing more than noise makers.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by spokenword View Post
                          So go and preach the Gospel does not apply to you when you fellowship with your brethren. Interesting.
                          No, it doesn't. Just as it doesn't apply to you when you are at your desk at work.
                          Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                          "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                            No, it doesn't. Just as it doesn't apply to you when you are at your desk at work.
                            I do at my job.

                            Without Love we are nothing more than noise makers.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by spokenword View Post
                              I do at my job.
                              That's a really good way to get fired.
                              Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                              "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                                That's a really good way to get fired.
                                Not when you are the boss.

                                Without Love we are nothing more than noise makers.

                                Comment

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