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2000 years of the Church and the Jews

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
    People are punished for their own sins.
    Fine. Then I'd say no one was truly a Believer until after the resurrection. Same result.
    I'm not a prosecutor at all. IF Jesus judged that generation, He had the authority to do so.
    When the Prophet like Moses comes, Israel was told to listen to Him, or it would be required of them....

    I don't see why you are singling out the Jews
    Jesus didn't present Himself to the Romans, and Celts, and just whoever.
    He presented Himself to the Jews...His own people...the only people on Earth expecting the Messiah!

    Since when did their unbelief have anything to do with Jesus' crucifixion?
    Are you serious? LOL
    Jesus forgave everyone that should have been on the Cross ...
    The Messiah was rejected by His own people....that is what was prophesied and that is what happened.
    If God's doing, He can do that....He hardened Pharaoh's heart and he hardened Israel's hearts as well.
    "He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their hearts,
    so they can neither see with their eyes,
    nor understand with their hearts,
    nor turn"

    and still today...it is an issue of Submission.

    Is Christian hatred of Jews ok? of course not...why would it be...?
    Christians are both saints and sinners - the saint part isn't our doing, and the sinner part doesn't negate the former.



    Last edited by American Gothic; 07-10-18, 10:32 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
      This is direct contradiction of how scripture says things works. Scripture teaches that each person is judged for their OWN sins. If that's true, you can't blame an entire generation, even if some try to bring such a curse upon others. Please examine these verses and think about them.

      Each person will be put to death for his own sin. Deuteronomy 24:16

      “That is why I will judge each of you by what you have done, people of Israel,” declares the Almighty Ezekiel 18:30


      Even the Christian scriptures support this:

      Romans 2:6 God will repay each person according to what they have done.
      There is problem with that concept. Yes, the soul that sins will be judged by God; however, that concept falls apart when you read of God inciting Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon to attack Israel and carry off the survivors to Babylon. Many of those carried off into exile were devout believers in God, such as Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah. (who were renamed: to Daniel, Belteshazzar; to Hananiah, Shadrach; to Mishael, Meshach; and to Azariah, Abednego).

      The devout suffered the same fate as the unbelievers.
      Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

      Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by AlFin View Post

        There is problem with that concept. Yes, the soul that sins will be judged by God; however, that concept falls apart when you read of God inciting Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon to attack Israel and carry off the survivors to Babylon. Many of those carried off into exile were devout believers in God, such as Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah. (who were renamed: to Daniel, Belteshazzar; to Hananiah, Shadrach; to Mishael, Meshach; and to Azariah, Abednego).

        The devout suffered the same fate as the unbelievers.
        The covenantal right for Israel to live in the Promised Land if she obeys God's commands is a promise made with Israel as a People, not with individual Jews. God didn't send Daniel or Meshach to hell for the idolatry of others. Rather, God removed all of Israel from the Land because Israel as a People, had not been faithful, despite repeated warnings. The Jews, btw, prospered so much in Babylon that most of them never returned to the Land even when Cyrus gave them permission to do so.
        Open Heart, Hebrew Catholic
        “God never abandoned his covenant with Israel" Pope Francis
        "It is unthinkable that [the Church] would claim to replace Israel. She is not another Israel." Cardinal Lustiger

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
          Israel as a People, had not been faithful, .
          and Israel, as a people, did not believe the Messiah
          believers later may have later escaped certain aspects of the judgement...say, the seige of Jerusalem by the Romans
          while other factions within the Jewish population and Judaism did not
          Last edited by American Gothic; 07-11-18, 10:33 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

            and Israel, as a people, did not believe the Messiah
            believers later may have escaped certain aspects of the judgement...say, the seige of Jerusalem by the Romans
            There was never a part of God's covenant with Israel that said "Unless you believe in the messiah I will curse you.
            Open Heart, Hebrew Catholic
            “God never abandoned his covenant with Israel" Pope Francis
            "It is unthinkable that [the Church] would claim to replace Israel. She is not another Israel." Cardinal Lustiger

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
              There was never a part of God's covenant with Israel that said "Unless you believe in the messiah I will curse you.
              I said Jesus predicted a judgement of that generation of Israel...
              not that God cursed Israel or all Jews, or that they deserved to be treated as if they had been.

              Judgements can be corrective or destructive...and the destruction came as He predicted.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

                I said Jesus predicted a judgement of that generation of Israel...
                not that God cursed Israel or all Jews, or that they deserved to be treated as if they had been.

                Judgements can be corrective or destructive...and the destruction came as He predicted.
                It was a wicked generation and was punished --- even the Talmud speaks about this. But not for non-belief. Rather for their sheer hatred of one another And the punishment is not simply the destruction of the temple, but diaspora, the condition of the covenant.
                Open Heart, Hebrew Catholic
                “God never abandoned his covenant with Israel" Pope Francis
                "It is unthinkable that [the Church] would claim to replace Israel. She is not another Israel." Cardinal Lustiger

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                  condition
                  where and why are gentiles warned not to boast against the natural branches...?
                  Last edited by American Gothic; 07-13-18, 04:24 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

                    where and why are gentiles warned not to boast against the natural branches...?
                    In Romans 11. They are told not to boast because they are no better, being saved by God's mercy.
                    Open Heart, Hebrew Catholic
                    “God never abandoned his covenant with Israel" Pope Francis
                    "It is unthinkable that [the Church] would claim to replace Israel. She is not another Israel." Cardinal Lustiger

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                      It was a wicked generation and was punished --- even the Talmud speaks about this. But not for non-belief. Rather for their sheer hatred of one another And the punishment is not simply the destruction of the temple, but diaspora, the condition of the covenant.
                      You are acknowledging how they treated their own when they accepted Jesus. Why is it the tribe of Levi ( priesthood) is always blamed by the rabbis? Are they not Jewish? It is this blindness that is huge problem. It's ok to have replacement theology as long as it is the rabbis replacing Levi. It's ok to be antisemetic if it is against Levi.
                      It was Jew's which said Jew's cannot be Christian. It was Jews that therefore caused Christianity to be considered an illegal religion. But you will not see it.

                      Pull the beam out of your own eyes first ok? No wonder not many Jew's made up the Church after the Rabbi's were given power by Rome after the temple was destroyed. Even that gets blamed on Gentiles.
                      Gentiles are guilty of plenty certainly, but Rabbinic Judaism has plenty also.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                        There was never a part of God's covenant with Israel that said "Unless you believe in the messiah I will curse you.
                        Did not Moses command from God?
                        De 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

                        Did they obey this command?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                          This is direct contradiction of how scripture says things works. Scripture teaches that each person is judged for their OWN sins. If that's true, you can't blame an entire generation, even if some try to bring such a curse upon others. Please examine these verses and think about them.

                          Each person will be put to death for his own sin. Deuteronomy 24:16

                          “That is why I will judge each of you by what you have done, people of Israel,” declares the Almighty Ezekiel 18:30


                          Even the Christian scriptures support this:

                          Romans 2:6 God will repay each person according to what they have done.
                          It is not as cut and dried as all that.
                          Mt 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
                          29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
                          30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
                          31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
                          32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
                          33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
                          34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
                          35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
                          36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

                          Jew's have not done this...…… The collective nature of sin...………….

                          Num 16:20 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
                          21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.
                          22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
                          23 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
                          24 Speak unto the congregation, saying, Get you up from about the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.
                          25 And Moses rose up and went unto Dathan and Abiram; and the elders of Israel followed him.
                          26 And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins.

                          Jos 22:20 Did not Achan the son of Zerah commit a trespass in the accursed thing, and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel? and that man perished not alone in his iniquity.


                          Jos 22:18 But that ye must turn away this day from following the LORD? and it will be, seeing ye rebel to day against the LORD, that to morrow he will be wroth with the whole congregation of Israel.


                          Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                          It was at that time that the Sadducees, which ran the Temple, persecuted the Christians. Saul was a temple guard.

                          So it is best not to confuse the Sanhedrin during Jesus' ministry, which was run by bet Shammai, with the Sanhedrin during the Apostle's time, which was run by bet Hillel. And even during the time of Jesus, there were bet Hillel Pharisees such as Nicademus who had an entirely different take on Jesus, so you really have to know your Pharisees.

                          But all this is deviation. Can we get back on track? People are punished for their own sins.
                          More accusations against Jews.....
                          It was because the Pharisees were given authority over Jew's and their religious matters after the temple was destroyed, by Vespasian. That is when Curses were said in the synagogues to prevent believing Jews could not attend as they would have been forced to pronounce a curse upon themselves

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                            In Romans 11
                            "They were broken off because of unbelief" v. 20

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by joline View Post

                              You are acknowledging how they treated their own when they accepted Jesus. Why is it the tribe of Levi ( priesthood) is always blamed by the rabbis? Are they not Jewish? It is this blindness that is huge problem. It's ok to have replacement theology as long as it is the rabbis replacing Levi. It's ok to be antisemetic if it is against Levi.
                              It was Jew's which said Jew's cannot be Christian. It was Jews that therefore caused Christianity to be considered an illegal religion. But you will not see it.

                              Pull the beam out of your own eyes first ok? No wonder not many Jew's made up the Church after the Rabbi's were given power by Rome after the temple was destroyed. Even that gets blamed on Gentiles.
                              Gentiles are guilty of plenty certainly, but Rabbinic Judaism has plenty also.
                              There is a limit to what I'm going to say i response, because I'm not going to discuss Christian theology in this forum.

                              So where are the thousands of years of persecutions and deaths caused by Rabbinical Judaism?
                              Open Heart, Hebrew Catholic
                              “God never abandoned his covenant with Israel" Pope Francis
                              "It is unthinkable that [the Church] would claim to replace Israel. She is not another Israel." Cardinal Lustiger

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by American Gothic View Post
                                "They were broken off because of unbelief" v. 20
                                I would normally reply, but I don't discuss Christian theology on this forum.
                                Open Heart, Hebrew Catholic
                                “God never abandoned his covenant with Israel" Pope Francis
                                "It is unthinkable that [the Church] would claim to replace Israel. She is not another Israel." Cardinal Lustiger

                                Comment

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