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Question for ethnic Jews, on this board....

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  • Question for ethnic Jews, on this board....

    Who, exactly, is a "Gentile"? I always thought it was someone who was NOT Jewish by birth/ethnicity. Now, a Jew is a Jew no matter where he lives in the world, correct? But a poster on the Mormon board seems to think that a Gentile can be a Jew living in a non-Jewish country:

    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...arrogant/page6

    Post no. 79, specifically this:

    It all depends on how you define 'gentile' and from YOUR dictionary link.. the very first definition : a person of a non-Jewish nation. Which is consistent with what I said.. Paul was an apostle to the 'gentiles'.. Persons in non-Jewish NATIONS.. The person may or may not be a Jew by heritage or belief... Just living in a non-Jewish Nation. Paul himself was a 'gentile' by that definition.. He was a person living in a non-Jewish nation.. Tarsus was not Jewish.. He was a roman Citizen as well.. Even if he was a practicing an believing Jew. Hence that is why in Acts we see he usually is teaching to Jews in the local synagogue of non-Jewish nations.
    Here are the definitions:

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gentile

    Is this person correct? He is the only person I have ever seen make this argument. Thanks.
    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
    Its easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

  • #2
    Bonnie I got this from a site called My Jewish Learning that I go to occasionally. It is very interesting.

    https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...ernor-of-utah/
    Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

    Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
    but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God. ― Martin Luther


    Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

    Comment


    • #3
      Interesting, Thekla. I may write to them for more info on this.
      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
      Its easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
        Who, exactly, is a "Gentile"? I always thought it was someone who was NOT Jewish by birth/ethnicity. Now, a Jew is a Jew no matter where he lives in the world, correct? But a poster on the Mormon board seems to think that a Gentile can be a Jew living in a non-Jewish country:

        https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...arrogant/page6

        Post no. 79, specifically this:



        Here are the definitions:

        https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gentile

        Is this person correct? He is the only person I have ever seen make this argument. Thanks.
        Mormons are all screwed up about Jews and Gentiles. I pay them no attention. If you want to know what a Jew is, you ask a Jew--a Jew is anyone born of a Jewish mom or who's conversion to Judaism is halakhic (valid by Jewish law). A Gentile is anyone who is not a Jew.
        Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

        "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

          Mormons are all screwed up about Jews and Gentiles. I pay them no attention. If you want to know what a Jew is, you ask a Jew--a Jew is anyone born of a Jewish mom or who's conversion to Judaism is halakhic (valid by Jewish law). A Gentile is anyone who is not a Jew.
          Thanks. I basically figured that.

          I hope I do get a comment from an actual Jew on here. Because I think they would be surprised to know that something thinks that Jews are Gentiles if they live outside Israel.
          "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
          "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
          Its easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
          "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
          "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
          "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

          Comment


          • #6
            New link--the one in the OP is invalid. The discussion of this got moved to the APO forum:

            https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...ws-or-gentiles
            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
            Its easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

            Comment


            • #7
              I've heard that Mormon's consider themselves to be Jews and everyone else-even Jews-are gentiles. It makes no sense what so ever, but I guess they are free to believe as they wish.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TripleT View Post
                I've heard that Mormon's consider themselves to be Jews and everyone else-even Jews-are gentiles. It makes no sense what so ever, but I guess they are free to believe as they wish.
                Exactly. I respect Mormons for the good clean lives they live. But some of their doctrines just leave me baffled.
                Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TripleT View Post
                  I've heard that Mormon's consider themselves to be Jews and everyone else-even Jews-are gentiles. It makes no sense what so ever, but I guess they are free to believe as they wish.
                  What is odd is that even the Mormon church agrees with me, about who and what Gentiles in the Bible are. They used to consider all no-Mormons "Gentiles" but they have toned that down fairly recently.

                  I did write to Jews for Jesus and asked my question in the OP, and got an almost immediate response from a Jewish gentleman who said that my Mormon correspondent is wrong--that a Jew is a Jew no matter where he lives in the world. NOT a Gentile outside of Jewish nations.
                  "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                  "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                  Its easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                  "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                  "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                  "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post



                    I did write to Jews for Jesus and asked my question in the OP, and got an almost immediate response from a Jewish gentleman who said that my Mormon correspondent is wrong--that a Jew is a Jew no matter where he lives in the world. NOT a Gentile outside of Jewish nations.
                    This is true. A Jew is a Jew no matter where he lives. Mormons may have other beliefs, and of course they are free to believe as they like, as strange as these beliefs may be.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks. But even their own church does not agree with this person. But says Gentiles are non-Jews. I don't get why the insistence that Gentiles are non-Jews AND Jews living outside of Jewish nations. It makes no sense.
                      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                      Its easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The Apostle Paul was a gentile. Someone who accepts Christ is not a Jew, by definition. Try googling Jewish websites. Christian Zionists (the fan club of the spawn of Satan) will mislead you. They will lie to you, so check Jewish websites.

                        Paul once refers to himself as a Jew, when he was pleading with a mob of Jews to save his life. Why would Paul call himself a Jew that one time when he wasn't one, even given his desperate circumstance? Paul explained that to Jews "he became like a Jew", and that he became all things to all people (Paul kept the Jewish practices, even though they weren't part of his faith, to win converts). To the gentiles, Paul presented himself as a gentile.

                        Paul's former self, Saul, was a Jew. A Jew is someone who more or less accepts the Jewish religion, no matter where they live, no matter their ancestry.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ruk View Post
                          The Apostle Paul was a gentile. Someone who accepts Christ is not a Jew, by definition. Try googling Jewish websites. Christian Zionists (the fan club of the spawn of Satan) will mislead you. They will lie to you, so check Jewish websites.

                          Paul once refers to himself as a Jew, when he was pleading with a mob of Jews to save his life. Why would Paul call himself a Jew that one time when he wasn't one, even given his desperate circumstance? Paul explained that to Jews "he became like a Jew", and that he became all things to all people (Paul kept the Jewish practices, even though they weren't part of his faith, to win converts). To the gentiles, Paul presented himself as a gentile.

                          Paul's former self, Saul, was a Jew. A Jew is someone who more or less accepts the Jewish religion, no matter where they live, no matter their ancestry.
                          You have to realize that at the time of Paul, Christianity wasn't even a separate religion, but was still a sect of Judaism. The Sanhedrin didn't kick the Christians out of the Synagogues until later in history, and the truth is that Jewish Christians continued to keep Torah hundreds of years, until the Gentile church began passing punitive laws against Christains observing Jewish laws and traditions.

                          So yes, Paul in Paul's day was considered a Jew, there is no doubt at all. He would have been considered part of an esoteric sect. There were MANY such esoteric sects at that time in history -- Judaism was a real hodge podge out of which Rabbinic Judaism would arise. Lots of messiahs, end of days groups, etc. They were ALL considered Jews until in one fell swoop the Sanhedrin cleaned house. (IOW Christians weren't singled out.)

                          Even today, if you REALLY PUSH Jews, they will admit to you that the ACTUAL status of Christian Jews is that of Apostate Jews. But they are still Jews.

                          What Jews correctly insist on is that Messianic Jews are not practicing Judaism as they claim. MJ is actually a syncretistic religion combining Christianity and Judaism, but is either a subgroup of Christianity (as Hebrew Catholicism is) or not truly either one (such as the MJ of the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations).

                          Another way to see this is that although Hebrew Christians technically remain ethnically Christian, their religion is Christianity, not Judaism, according to Jews, and are therefore apostates.
                          Last edited by Open Heart; 01-09-19, 11:16 PM.
                          Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                          "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                            You have to realize that at the time of Paul, Christianity wasn't even a separate religion, but was still a sect of Judaism. The Sanhedrin didn't kick the Christians out of the Synagogues until later in history, and the truth is that Jewish Christians continued to keep Torah hundreds of years, until the Gentile church began passing punitive laws against Christains observing Jewish laws and traditions.
                            I disagree. The NT treats Christians and Jews very distinctly, even before the crucifixion. Paul condemned those who taught Christians to follow Jewish [ritual] laws. What small case you might have had before the crucifixion, and before Paul's conversion, vanishes after the resurrection -- Christians didn't practice the rite of circumcision (Paul condemned it) and gentiles were wholly welcome by nothing but confession of Christ (followed by baptism).

                            But, we don't live in Paul's day.

                            What Jews correctly insist on is that Messianic Jews are not practicing Judaism as they claim.
                            Today, being a Jew doesn't require you to practice anything, but it does require that you don't convert to another religion. Yevamot 17a teaches that the offspring from the ten lost tribes are gentiles. The Old Testament teaches the expulsion of converts from the nation. Maybe there is some quibble about a Messianic Jew being an apostate but still a Jew vs. not being a Jew at all. But, the phrase "apostate Jew" really means no longer a Jew, even if most Jewish authorities wouldn't demand the full conversion process to return to the fold. As many a Jew has told me, Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, so logically it follows...


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ruk View Post

                              I disagree. The NT treats Christians and Jews very distinctly, even before the crucifixion. Paul condemned those who taught Christians to follow Jewish [ritual] laws. What small case you might have had before the crucifixion, and before Paul's conversion, vanishes after the resurrection -- Christians didn't practice the rite of circumcision (Paul condemned it) and gentiles were wholly welcome by nothing but confession of Christ (followed by baptism).

                              But, we don't live in Paul's day.



                              Today, being a Jew doesn't require you to practice anything, but it does require that you don't convert to another religion. Yevamot 17a teaches that the offspring from the ten lost tribes are gentiles. The Old Testament teaches the expulsion of converts from the nation. Maybe there is some quibble about a Messianic Jew being an apostate but still a Jew vs. not being a Jew at all. But, the phrase "apostate Jew" really means no longer a Jew, even if most Jewish authorities wouldn't demand the full conversion process to return to the fold. As many a Jew has told me, Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, so logically it follows...

                              Ruk, are you Christian or Jewish?

                              Paul only condemned those who taught GENTILES to observe Jewish law. Remember that all his letters were written to the Gentile churches, not to the Jewish church
                              Today, Jews ARE required to practice varying levels of Torah (depending on the denomination); it't just that our status doesn't depend on whether we practice or not. IOW the person may be a sinful Jew but they're still a Jew.

                              There are some religions that are not considered at odds with Judaism, such as Buddhism. Such Jews are only considered Jewish heretics. Other religions, such as Christianity, are considered utterly at odds. Jews that convert are considered apostate Jews, but they are not considered Gentiles.

                              When I checked, if a Jew converts to Christianity, it simply takes a dip in the mikvah for repentance to return to Judaism. If you have a source you can quote and cite to back up your claim, I would definitely like to hear it.
                              Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                              "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                              Comment

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