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You are a priest forever - without a covenant - according to the order of Melchisedek

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

    I don't believe confused Catholics,
    who fail to keep the 613 commandments of the Law.

    Case closed.
    What you mean is, you don't believe what the verse says. Case closed.

    Still no apology from you for misquoting.

    Still no thanks from you for pointing out the mistake...
    Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

    "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

    Comment


    • #32

      Originally posted by Conqueror View Post


      I don't believe confused Catholics,
      who fail to keep the 613 commandments of the Law.

      Case closed.

      Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

      What you mean is, you don't believe what the verse says. Case closed.

      Still no apology from you for misquoting.

      Still no thanks from you for pointing out the mistake...
      Case closed.

      .
      The apostolic word of God by the Twelve is the highest written authority, for it binds and loosens (Mat 16-19).
      Then the foundational prophets - NO OTHER WORKS QUALIFY

      Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

        What you mean is, you don't believe what the verse says. Case closed.

        Still no apology from you for misquoting.

        Still no thanks from you for pointing out the mistake...
        You don’t understand scripture. Good luck with that project.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
          et.all

          I am not a Jew, but I will see the Kingdom and the Kingdom Age, having been brought near to the commonwealth of Israel, even thought the land is Israel's and the (unconditional) covenants made with them still stand...ultimately fulfilled in the New.
          Abraham is my father, even thought the physical promises made to them don't apply directly to me as such.
          God can raise up for Himself children of Abraham from stones!
          Perhaps this is confusing to many ethnic descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
          Do they not realize that it was God's plan to include Gentiles in His plan of salvation from the start?

          A heavenly condo will suit me just fine....Jerusalem as it has been and is on earth now is not the eternal one.
          In the Kingdom Age I will rule and reign with Messiah...as in Him I am a priest and that priesthood is a royal priesthood. (1 Peter 2)
          As you know, those positions were separated under the Mosaic/Law of Moses...
          so I don't really buy your "figurative" appropriation of such to David, a king under that covenant.
          Mosaic kingship and priesthood is tribal hereditary....the Melchizedek is not.

          Aaron would have been the melchy of his time, until God made the covenant with Israel at Sinai, with change in law and also priesthood, for a time.
          Moses would have had plenty of info to draw on to write his history as it had been passed down from melchy to melchy since Adam, and ultimately to his older brother.
          Pharisee/Rabbinics perhaps were more interested in their oral law, rather than what had been passed down by the early patriarchs....




          Originally posted by Conqueror View Post
          etc. & etc.
          God's righteousness will last forever - wouldn't He would be the Father of Righteousness?
          The only righteousness we can have is given to us as a gift, and is not our own.
          Trying to establish our own will ultimately prove worthless.
          Abel knew a savior would be coming who would take care of the sin issue once and for All.
          Last edited by American Gothic; 01-26-19, 02:56 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Conqueror View Post


            who also walk in the steps of the faith
            which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised
            (Ro 4:12).


            Abraham was the father of those justified by faith as the verse points out.
            Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

            Abraham is my father ............

            God's righteousness will last forever - wouldn't He would be the Father of Righteousness?
            You were trying to teach me
            about Melchy, the king of righteousness.

            .


            The apostolic word of God by the Twelve is the highest written authority, for it binds and loosens (Mat 16-19).
            Then the foundational prophets - NO OTHER WORKS QUALIFY

            Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Conqueror View Post
              about Melchy
              I am not a teacher, only a discusser, and I would concede to issues you have both pointed out -

              this is not taught in Scripture (Melchizedek is a rather mysterious figure who is only briefly referenced)
              this would not be something essential to Church belief and practice
              historical questions of this nature are open for debate, but should not divide the body of Messiah

              Speculation usually has him as a Theophany or just some random dude, but I'm personally unsatisfied with the latter.
              IF Shem was the melchy of Abraham's time, AND there were persons before and after that had that role of sorts
              THEN it sounds kinda cool, and might explain some stuff a bit. That is all.

              Dead Sea scrolls and history of various Jewish faction disagreements seem to be the basis of this idea.
              Book can be read and YouTube videos watched on the subject and their scholarship appraised thus.

              Why I spelled though as thought twice I do not know.
              Last edited by American Gothic; 01-27-19, 01:19 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

                Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine;
                he was the priest of God Most High.
                And he blessed him ...
                (Gen 14:18-19).

                A fake blessing by king who wasn't a man of God for Abram
                was the soon to be declared 'father of righteousness' (Gen 15:6, Rom 4:12).

                Abram gave tithes to Melchy, who wasn't a priest either
                for there had been no covenant, which required a priest.


                It gets worse for David states;


                The LORD has sworn
                And will not relent,
                “You are a priest forever
                - without a covenant -
                according to the order of Melchizedek.” (Ps 110:4).

                Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

                I am not a teacher, only a discusser, and I would concede to issues you have both pointed out -

                this is not taught in Scripture (Melchizedek is a rather mysterious figure who is only briefly referenced)
                this would not be something essential to Church belief and practice
                historical questions of this nature are open for debate, but should not divide the body of Messiah

                Speculation usually has him as a Theophany or just some random dude, but I'm personally unsatisfied with the latter.
                IF Shem was the melchy of Abraham's time, AND there were persons before and after that had that role of sorts
                THEN it sounds kinda cool, and might explain some stuff a bit. That is all.

                Dead Sea scrolls and history of various Jewish faction disagreements seem to be the basis of this idea.
                Book can be read and YouTube videos watched on the subject and their scholarship appraised thus.

                Why I spelled though as thought twice I do not know.
                The book of Enoch was the source for David's absurdity:
                The LORD has sworn
                And will not relent,
                “You are a priest forever
                - without a covenant -
                according to the order of Melchizedek.” (Ps 110:4).

                However Abraham was the father of righteousness
                and Moses was well aware of
                that Melchy wasn't the king of righteousness.

                This exposed David and the author of Hebrews as lacking understanding,
                which is precisely the point I am making.


                .


                The apostolic word of God by the Twelve is the highest written authority, for it binds and loosens (Mat 16-19).
                Then the foundational prophets - NO OTHER WORKS QUALIFY

                Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                  There is no reason to think that there was a "line" of Melchizedek priests, even if Shem were Melchizedek.
                  I don't know what Judaism's views are on this idea but I found this at Chabad.org...

                  "Who was this Melchizedek? What sort of priest was he, and why did Abraham give him a tithe?"

                  Response:

                  "Taken alone, this tiny anecdote does indeed seem strange. The Torah tells us nothing else about this man and his relationship to Abraham.

                  The ancient Targumim (Aramaic interpretive translations) identify Melchizedek as Shem, —son of Noah. Shem was one of the links in the chain who transmitted the G‑dly traditions that originated with Adam. These traditions were carefully handed down from generation to generation, and Shem, —who headed an academy, —was a key conductor of these teachings."

                  It goes on to say the priesthood passed to Abraham's children...because of a error Shem made when he blessed Abraham before blessing God , so because of Melchizedek's ill-chosen speech, the priesthood was taken from him and was given to the seed of Abraham forever.

                  Don't know how much to make of all that, but maybe the general concepts are historically not so foreign in Jewish thought.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

                    I don't know what Judaism's views are on this idea but I found this at Chabad.org...

                    "Who was this Melchizedek? What sort of priest was he, and why did Abraham give him a tithe?"

                    Response:

                    "Taken alone, this tiny anecdote does indeed seem strange. The Torah tells us nothing else about this man and his relationship to Abraham.

                    The ancient Targumim (Aramaic interpretive translations) identify Melchizedek as Shem, —son of Noah. Shem was one of the links in the chain who transmitted the G‑dly traditions that originated with Adam. These traditions were carefully handed down from generation to generation, and Shem, —who headed an academy, —was a key conductor of these teachings."

                    It goes on to say the priesthood passed to Abraham's children...because of a error Shem made when he blessed Abraham before blessing God , so because of Melchizedek's ill-chosen speech, the priesthood was taken from him and was given to the seed of Abraham forever.

                    Don't know how much to make of all that, but maybe the general concepts are historically not so foreign in Jewish thought.
                    Shem wasn't the father of righteousness.
                    So much for those teachings.

                    Abraham was declared righteous for his faith.

                    The apostolic word of God by the Twelve is the highest written authority, for it binds and loosens (Mat 16-19).
                    Then the foundational prophets - NO OTHER WORKS QUALIFY

                    Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      [QUOTE=American Gothic;n5792389]

                      I am not a Jew, but I will see the Kingdom and the Kingdom Age, having been brought near to the commonwealth of Israel, even thought the land is Israel's and the (unconditional) covenants made with them still stand...ultimately fulfilled in the New.
                      Abraham is my father, even thought the physical promises made to them don't apply directly to me as such.
                      God can raise up for Himself children of Abraham from stones!
                      Perhaps this is confusing to many ethnic descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
                      Do they not realize that it was God's plan to include Gentiles in His plan of salvation from the start?

                      A heavenly condo will suit me just fine....Jerusalem as it has been and is on earth now is not the eternal one.
                      In the Kingdom Age I will rule and reign with Messiah...as in Him I am a priest and that priesthood is a royal priesthood. (1 Peter 2)
                      As you know, those positions were separated under the Mosaic/Law of Moses...
                      so I don't really buy your "figurative" appropriation of such to David, a king under that covenant.
                      Mosaic kingship and priesthood is tribal hereditary....the Melchizedek is not.

                      Aaron would have been the melchy of his time, until God made the covenant with Israel at Sinai, with change in law and also priesthood, for a time.
                      Moses would have had plenty of info to draw on to write his history as it had been passed down from melchy to melchy since Adam, and ultimately to his older brother.
                      Pharisee/Rabbinics perhaps [
                      QUOTE]There is absolutely no evidence that the there is a literal Melchizedek priesthood that is continuous. In the absence of evidence we must conclude that it is figurative.
                      Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                      "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                        ....continuous.
                        In the absence of evidence we must conclude.....
                        I do not know Hebrew.
                        Would you know (or could you find out) what word is used for "forever" in Psalm 110?
                        I'm wondering if it has any component of "past" or only means, like... "from this moment forward" or something....
                        and if there are other Hebrew words that could have been used there to mean something specifically different.

                        I want to know if there is an eternal (past) Melchizedekian priest.
                        Last edited by American Gothic; 01-29-19, 03:23 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

                          I do not know Hebrew.
                          Would you know (or could you find out) what word is used for "forever" in Psalm 110?
                          I'm wondering if it has any component of "past" or only means, like... "from this moment forward" or something....
                          and if there are other Hebrew words that could have been used there to mean something specifically different.

                          I want to know if there is an eternal (past) Melchizedekian priest.
                          My laptop is broken right now. There is a limit to what I can do on my phone with ease. I can’t open up more than one browser tab or I’d look it up for you.

                          Usually “forever” is translated from l’olam vaed. It really means something closer to “from world unto world. “. No past there.

                          shlomoh do you have anything you can offer here?
                          Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                          "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                          Comment

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