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Just how guilty is Martin Luther?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

    Do you agree with him on what he said in "Regarding the Jews and Their Lies" also? Was he great at that moment?
    • to burn down Jewish synagogues and schools and warn people against them
    • to raze Jewish houses
    • to take away Jewish religious writings
    • to forbid rabbis from preaching
    • to offer no protection to Jews on highways
    • for banking/lending to be prohibited and for all Jews' silver and gold to be stolen from them, and given to Jews who
      "truly" convert
    • to force young, strong Jews into slavery
    Jews treat the Palestinians no better.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Ruk View Post

      Jews treat the Palestinians no better.
      Typical propaganda. Let's go point by point (which you neglected to do in your fervor.)

      1. Jews do NOT destroy Mosques or any houses of worship.
      2. As to destruction of Palestinian homes, this is the only one where you have half a point, and falls into three categories:
      • The destruction of homes in which terrorism has taken place. This I defend. Israel has a right to defend itself.
      • The destruction of the homes of the families of the those who have carried out plots against Israel. This is because Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc., have a policy to promise terrorists that they will reward them by taking care of their families, for example by paying their mortgages. Israel cannot allow the reward of terrorism against it. It has a right to defend itself. This I defend.
      • The destruction of homes in order to build Settler homes on the same land. In times past this has been done by extremists and has not been the policy of the Israeli government. However, recently the right wing government of Netanyahu, which at least seems to be in favor of annexing large proportions of the West Bank, now has a policy of deliberately turning a blind eye to this. This includes a justice system which okays this. This is adamantly opposed by Jews in the diaspora (including me) as well as many Jews in Israel (although many in Israel also support it). IOW you can't make a blanket statement about all Jews supporting this sort of action.
      3. Jews do NOT take away the Quran from anyone.
      4. Jews do NOT prevent Imams from preaching.
      5. Jews do NOT take away legal protection of Arab Israelis on the highways within Israel. Within the West Bank, I am not sure what the state of affairs on this is and cannot answer, and I don't think you can either.
      6. Jews have NOT outlawed Palestinians their normal livelihood (which is farming). We have NOT stolen their money from them. We d NOT try to coerce their conversion to Judaism.
      7. Jews do NOT enslave young Palestinians, forcing them to work for us.

      So no, Jews do NOT treat Palestinians anything even close to the same as Martin Luther advocated treating the Jews.
      Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

      "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Ruk View Post
        Martin Luther was one of the greatest men in all history, and he knew what he was talking about.

        modern political correctness.
        Yeah, it's not fair to judge important persons of history by only certain things they said or wrote or did.
        Luther was certainly brave.
        Christopher Columbus was not a "racist", by todays standards, nor was he an incompetent seaman as is sometimes claimed.


        Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
        Oh please, AG. Jews have never been bad for society,

        "Never" is a strong word. Why use such blanket statements when it comes to Jews?
        If big deal can be made about positive Jewish contributions in light of limited population numbers, then the opposite affirmed should be fair game if fairly applicable.
        http://jewishquarterly.org/issuearch...l?articleid=38

        Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
        I've got to disagree with this. What Paul preached was that GENTILES need not become Jews. Acts 21 shows that Paul cooperated with James in planning to dispel the FALSE rumor that he taught Jews to give up the Mosaic covenant.
        What Paul taught was that Jews don't have to stop being Jewish, and that Gentiles don't have to become Jews - he did teach new position concerning Mosaic Law for those in Jesus.
        There was rift within the Jewish people/"Judaism" concerning Jesus' messianic claims (which even Peter discussed in 1 Pet. 2) and there continues to be.

        Even Jews don't agree on Who is a Jew?...

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Ruk

          Israel has destroyed, or at least heavily damaged, both mosques and churches.

          Far right Jews and American Evangelicals want no less than genocide against the Palestinians. It's not enough for them that Israel keeps the Palestinians in concentration camps. And, none of those "three categories" of excuses for Israel destroying Palestinian homes would be allowed for any western country.

          Within Israel, Christians are treated as second class, and Christian speech is treated by Israeli law like pornography. I wonder how Israel would treat the Palestinians and Christians in Israel, if Israel weren't dependent on western money for their survival.

          The Palestinian crime is nothing but being born in those territories. I'll spare you the enumeration of Jewish crimes against our Lord, against Christian freedom, and against our economy, and against our culture.
          So exactly what is your relationship to Israel? Are you a Palestinian Muslim? Are you an Israeli Arab Christian? Are you a Westerner who merely has an extreme interest in what is going on? From your choice of words, it does seem like you are there in Israel, so please affirm or correct.

          You are basically not being entirely honest. It is not Israeli policy to destroy mosques or churches. Israeli policy is the free worship of both Islam and Christianity. Indeed, Israel has seen to it that sacred sites of both Christians (such as the Church of the Holy Sepulcher) and Muslims (such as Al Aqsa Mosque) are protected. There are times when sacred building are inadvertently hit by Israeli bombs defending the country--these are not targets, and you cannot use them as examples.

          Far right Jews and Evangelical so NOT want the genocide of the Palestinians. Genocide means the physical extermination. Your accusation is absolutely absurd.

          There are no concentration camps. There are so-called refugee camps where non-refugees live. A person is not a refugee if 1. they are born in that country or 2. they are naturalized citizens. All the Palestinians in those camps need to do is move out. It is immoral that Palestinian government keeps them there.

          I'm sure that, since Israel is a Jewish state, that non-Jews feel like the odd man out. I live in a Christian country, so I know how that feels. It is inevitable. However, it is not a sign of discrimination. Unlike Muslims countries where Sharia law designates Christians and Jews as second class dhimmis who pay a penalty tax, Israel has no such laws.Sure there are some Israelis (especially the Orthodox) that will spit in the face of a Christian. But that's certainly not all Jews, or Israeli policy. I know Christian peace keepers who go yearly to Israel and the territories, and they do not feel that their views are "pornography."

          As for Palestinian "crime," first of all, unlike you, I don't paint all Palestinians with the same broad brush. I think that most Palestinians simply want to farm their lands and be left alone and if that means peace with Israel, so be it. But that is certainly not all Palestinians, and it is certainly not Palestinian leadership. The main fault in Palestinian thought is that it simply refuses to allow for the existence of Israel. Thus in its mind things like terrorist acts and lobbing rockets from Gaza are perfectly justified, as is the unthinkable thought that "all Israelis are guilty." This more than anything else has been THE obstacle to peace -- you cannot give a two state solution to a people who don't want it. Indeed, in 2000 the Palestinians were offered 95% of what they supposedly wanted, and Arafat walked out, proving that he didn't actually want a state of Palestine if it included a state of Israel.

          That doesn't mean Israel is an angel. I am a Zionist with a conscience. I am appalled by many things the Israelis do, and because they are MY people, it bothers me extra. I'm simply saying that the number one obstacle has been Palestinian rejection of the right of Israel to exist (and the resulting terrorism).

          Whether you accept either the secular or religious justifications of the existence of Israel or not, you have to accept that Israel is here to stay. Jews essentially have no other place to go, and so we fight for our very survival. Today, Israel is stronger than it has ever been. It has the 8th most powerful military in the world. It is a leader in tech and medical advances (IOW it is an economic success despite the lack of natural resources). And those Arab countries that once tried to destroy it??? They are its allies now in trade and defense. The Saudis and Egyptians in particular are sick to death of the Palestinian/Israeli problem, which they attribute mostly to the Palestinians dragging their feet -- they want the Palestinians to compromise, for example to give up the notion of East Jerusalem as a capital city. So the idea that Israel is going to just go away is utterly ridiculous. Best to make peace with it.
          Last edited by Open Heart; 07-12-19, 03:55 PM.
          Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

          "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
            Far right Jews and Evangelical so NOT want the genocide of the Palestinians. Genocide means the physical extermination. Your accusation is absolutely absurd.
            Then what does the far right want? Put yourself in the place of the far right, what terms should a reasonable Palestinian agree to?

            There are no concentration camps. There are so-called refugee camps where non-refugees live. A person is not a refugee if 1. they are born in that country or 2. they are naturalized citizens. All the Palestinians in those camps need to do is move out. It is immoral that Palestinian government keeps them there.
            According to the online Marriam Webster dictionary, a concentration camp is, "a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard." Is the Gaza strip not a place where large numbers of people, non-jewish people of Palestinian ethnicity, are confined under armed guard? Is not the Gaza strip militarily secured?

            You say they're not refugee camps because they were born in that country. What country is the Gaza strip? (Many people in the occupied territories are refugees from Israel in the 67 war.)

            I'm sure that, since Israel is a Jewish state, that non-Jews feel like the odd man out. I live in a Christian country, so I know how that feels. It is inevitable. However, it is not a sign of discrimination.
            Do you know that in Israel Christian taxpayers have to support Jew-only schools, which get more funding than any other schools? I'm not talking about feelings. Christians are really discriminated against in Israel. At least no one calls Muslim nations "western".

            I know Christian peace keepers who go yearly to Israel and the territories, and they do not feel that their views are "pornography."
            When you're not allowed to talk about something openly in public, especially around children, that's treating it like pornography, and that's how Israel treats Christianity.

            The main fault in Palestinian thought is that it simply refuses to allow for the existence of Israel. Thus in its mind things like terrorist acts and lobbing rockets from Gaza are perfectly justified, as is the unthinkable thought that "all Israelis are guilty." This more than anything else has been THE obstacle to peace -- you cannot give a two state solution to a people who don't want it. Indeed, in 2000 the Palestinians were offered 95% of what they supposedly wanted, and Arafat walked out, proving that he didn't actually want a state of Palestine if it included a state of Israel.
            A Zionist complaining that the Palestinians don't believe in an Israeli state is the pot calling the kettle black. For a Palestinian to support an Israeli state is like blacks supporting a KKK state. But, what they want is irrelevant because they're powerless.

            The 2000 peace deal offer required Palestinians to give up their rightful legal claim to a lot of land, not 95% of what they had legal claim to since 1967. They'd get about 80% of the land with promises of maybe up 95% in the future, of land they now have (including illegal settlements). Giving up their claim is not a peace deal, it's a con. If I robbed you of 100 dollars, leaving you with 100 dollars and said we could settle our dispute if you gave me another 5 dollars, would you think that fair? You get to keep 95% of what you still have! And, then I'd rob you again, and take your last 95 dollars, because that's my nature and what I want.

            Whether you accept either the secular or religious justifications of the existence of Israel or not, you have to accept that Israel is here to stay. Jews essentially have no other place to go, and so we fight for our very survival. Today, Israel is stronger than it has ever been. It has the 8th most powerful military in the world. It is a leader in tech and medical advances (IOW it is an economic success despite the lack of natural resources). And those Arab countries that once tried to destroy it??? They are its allies now in trade and defense. The Saudis and Egyptians in particular are sick to death of the Palestinian/Israeli problem, which they attribute mostly to the Palestinians dragging their feet -- they want the Palestinians to compromise, for example to give up the notion of East Jerusalem as a capital city. So the idea that Israel is going to just go away is utterly ridiculous. Best to make peace with it.
            The US pays Egypt to be cooperative with Israel. Saudi Arabia wants American weapons and western oil money. If Israel is doing so great, can the US cut off welfare payments?

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Ruk View Post

              Then what does the far right want? Put yourself in the place of the far right, what terms should a reasonable Palestinian agree to?
              The far right wants a single state of Israel, from the Mediterranean to the Jordan. This does NOT necessitate the genocide of the Palestinian people. So knock it off.

              According to the online Marriam Webster dictionary, a concentration camp is, "a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard." Is the Gaza strip not a place where large numbers of people, non-jewish people of Palestinian ethnicity, are confined under armed guard? Is not the Gaza strip militarily secured?
              Gaza is not a camp. Gaza is a huge territory, large enough to be a state or small country. It is governed by a terrorist organization, Hamas, which is actively seeking to invade its two neighbors, Israel and Egypt. Thus both its neighbors have military defense systems to defend their borders. This is well within the bounds of international law. Again, get off your high horse.

              You say they're not refugee camps because they were born in that country. What country is the Gaza strip? (Many people in the occupied territories are refugees from Israel in the 67 war.)
              [
              Gaza is part of an independent territory (not a state) which nevertheless has its unique citizenship--officially Gaza is under the governing of the Palestinian Authority and a person born there is issued Palestinian citizenship, receives a Palestinian passport, etc.



              Do you know that in Israel Christian taxpayers have to support Jew-only schools, which get more funding than any other schools? I'm not talking about feelings. Christians are really discriminated against in Israel. At least no one calls Muslim nations "western".
              This is not unique to Israel. There are many other places in the world where non-members of religious bodies pay taxes which support religious schools, including western democracies. Germany comes to mind.



              When you're not allowed to talk about something openly in public, especially around children, that's treating it like pornography, and that's how Israel treats Christianity.
              Pfft. These people are citizens of western democracies. They have the freedom to say whatever the heck they want about Israel.


              A Zionist complaining that the Palestinians don't believe in an Israeli state is the pot calling the kettle black. For a Palestinian to support an Israeli state is like blacks supporting a KKK state. But, what they want is irrelevant because they're powerless.
              This documents that you too do not want peace with Israel -- you want Israel gone. It goes to back up my very point that I've been trying to make. Thank you, thank you, for making my point so obviously.

              The 2000 peace deal offer required Palestinians to give up their rightful legal claim to a lot of land, not 95% of what they had legal claim to since 1967. They'd get about 80% of the land with promises of maybe up 95% in the future, of land they now have (including illegal settlements). Giving up their claim is not a peace deal, it's a con. If I robbed you of 100 dollars, leaving you with 100 dollars and said we could settle our dispute if you gave me another 5 dollars, would you think that fair? You get to keep 95% of what you still have! And, then I'd rob you again, and take your last 95 dollars, because that's my nature and what I want.
              The agreement honored the Green Line with the following exceptions:
              1. Israel was to maintain sovereinty over just the larger settlements in the WestBank (9% of the territory), but not the smaller settlements, which would be abandoned
              2. Palestinians would gain 1% of Israeli land which had strong cultural ties for them.
              3. Palestinians would gain authority over East Jerusalem -- a sacrifice that cut to the very heart of the Jews.

              The US pays Egypt to be cooperative with Israel. Saudi Arabia wants American weapons and western oil money. If Israel is doing so great, can the US cut off welfare payments?
              this is just ridiculous. Sadat came to the table and made peace of his own accord. The Saudis and other Arab states have realized that they BENEFIT from trade with Israel and joint military alliances against terrorist organizations and Iran. It's really that simple.
              Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

              "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                American Gothic

                This topic has been brought over from the Messianic Judaism room.

                AG, I was saying to you that Protestantism was begun by Martin Luther, the single greatest Anti-Semitic in the History of the Church. You replied,
                "Martin Luther killed how many Jewish people - compared to the Popes and their Catholic King and Queen stoogies, who also wanted to kill him? Thought so."

                I don't know that ML actually personally killed any Jews. He was the sort of man who got others to do his dirty work. For example, he got others to torture and execute the Anabaptists for heresy. Don't you think that if someone incites to violence, that they are responsible for that violence?

                Let's look at what Luther wrote in "On the Jews and their lies," which influenced the actions of countless Christians over the next 500 years, even up into the Holocaust:
                • Synagogues should be burned down.
                • Schools should be set on fire.
                • Siddurim (prayer books) destroyed
                • Rabbis forbidden to preach
                • Personal homes burned down
                • Theft of property and money considered righteous
                • They should be shown no mercy or kindness
                • They should be afforded no legal protection
                • "These poisonous envenomed worms" should be enslaved or expelled for all time.
                • He also advocates the murder of Jews: "we are at fault in not slaying them".
                As the powerhouse of Protestantism, many took his advice. He is responsible for their actions.

                And the worst of it is this: this is the plans, step by step, from the first to the last, taken by the Nazis, with the help of many Chrisitans. Luther is responsible for the actions of every Christian who participated in the Holocaust due to the "advice" he gave.
                Luther was for the Jews, he even wrote tracts to support them - until a Messianic Jew gave him a copy of the Babylonian Talmud. That changed everything. However, by his actions I don't think Luther could be considered a Christian. Even if we see someone as our enemy, we are to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us. In light of this, I consider Luther to be a heretic.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Miciah View Post

                  Luther was for the Jews, he even wrote tracts to support them - until a Messianic Jew gave him a copy of the Babylonian Talmud. That changed everything. However, by his actions I don't think Luther could be considered a Christian. Even if we see someone as our enemy, we are to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us. In light of this, I consider Luther to be a heretic.
                  If you believe in Bible only and salvation by faith alone, you are a Protestant after the teachings of Luther. You owe your theology to his teachings. I do find it fascinating, however, that you think of Luther as a heretic due to his treatment of the Jews (and possibly others).

                  His review of the Talmud was not the reason for Luther's turn upon the Jews. (I don't think he even read Aramaic.) In the beginning, Luther believed with all his heart that if one was kind to the Jews and presented us with the gospel in a spirit of love that we would accept the gospel. It was when we, as a people, continued to reject it that he grew increasingly frustrated, then angry, bitter, and hateful. To Luther, only an evil person would reject the gospel, and if an entire people rejected it, they must therefore be an evil people.
                  Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                  "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                  Comment

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