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Is a God-Messiah required for us to be sinless in the age to come?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by American Gothic View Post
    "And Adam knew Hava his wife, who had desired the Angel; and she conceived, and bare Kain; and she said, I have acquired a man, the Angel of the Lord."
    Genesis 4:1 (Targum Jonathan) https://www.sefaria.org/Targum_Jonat...esis.4?lang=bi

    Eve not only knew God Himself would come born as a man/the promised redeemer, she thought was her first son.
    The Angel of he LORD is simply a Messenger, not HaShem, and not the Messiah. Did you really think this was true about Cain? Really? Even among Jews this is figurative, not a heavenly Messenger, an angel. Nor does the passage imply that she "thought" but was mistaken about the exact identity and timing.
    Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

    "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

      The Angel of he LORD is simply a Messenger, not HaShem
      Liar.

      Disagreeing with the targums but using elements of the NT as proof text. How Jewish.
      Last edited by American Gothic; 09-03-19, 08:56 PM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

        Liar.
        Liar implies a deliberate deception. None of that is going on here. Calling me a liar is unjust, rude, spoils the dialogue, etc. Please choose another, more appropriate way to express your disagreement. You know that we are going to often disagree. It's best if you learn how to disagree in spirit of love now, rather than later.
        Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

        "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

          Jewish notions of the future are different from that of Christians. The ideas of the Tanakh don't neatly fit into NT boxes. Basically you have two things. You have an era to come where justice will reign on the earth, where there will be peace between the nations, and all the Jews will have returned to the Land of Israel. During this time, there will be a King on the throne of Israel -- we call him the Messiah, the Anointed One. Then there is the time after that, after the resurrection of the body. The earth will be made new. The very nature of humanity will change. People will know the law in their hearts without being taught and will not sin. Everyone will know God. At this time, God will give to Israel a New Covenant. It is not some spiritual world in heaven, but a living earthly world where we live as resurrected beings. We call this HaOlam HaBa, or "The World to Come." This is as best I can depict it. Different schools of thought in Judaism have different ideas about it. The Orthodox are very literal. The Reform don't believe in an afterlife at all. Two Jews, three opinions.
          You are ignoring the Old Testament prophecies that say the planet is going to be destroyed. That's one reason why Jesus said there would be souls cast into outer darkness. This realm will be disintegrated. Unless a soul is joined to the Holy Spirit you can't escape that end.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Miciah View Post

            You are ignoring the Old Testament prophecies that say the planet is going to be destroyed. That's one reason why Jesus said there would be souls cast into outer darkness. This realm will be disintegrated. Unless a soul is joined to the Holy Spirit you can't escape that end.
            Will the world be transformed somehow, some way? Yes. There will be the world to come. Whether it will involve a complete destruction of these world and a recreation from scratch, or simply an "update" I don't know. Yes, it will get worse before it gets better.

            But I don't really need to worry about any of this. God will take care of all of that. It is simply there in the sacred texts to let us know that God has a plan, and that it will ultimately all work out. What I need to worry about is my life, and whether I am obedient to God and walking in his ways.

            Anyone who is placing end times prophecy ahead of their personal walk, needs to rethink their priorities.
            Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

            "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

              Will the world be transformed somehow, some way? Yes. There will be the world to come. Whether it will involve a complete destruction of these world and a recreation from scratch, or simply an "update" I don't know. Yes, it will get worse before it gets better.

              But I don't really need to worry about any of this. God will take care of all of that. It is simply there in the sacred texts to let us know that God has a plan, and that it will ultimately all work out. What I need to worry about is my life, and whether I am obedient to God and walking in his ways.

              Anyone who is placing end times prophecy ahead of their personal walk, needs to rethink their priorities.
              The New Testament prophecies confirmed that God is going to make a whole new heaven and earth, but it is just for those who have accepted His plan of redemption for the human race that has been fulfilled in the Messiah Jesus. That's why knowing what the prophecies are all about is important. It's important to walk in His ways, but if we rebel against what He has said is required for the remission of sin, we can't be pleasing Him. He said that the life is in the blood and He has given it upon the altar to make atonement for the soul, it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:11. He has never changed that requirement for the remission of sin. Jesus was wounded for our transgression...Isaiah 53:5, His soul is the offering for our sins Isaiah 53:10. Jesus is the last sacrifice. That's why the temple was destroyed. God was putting an end to a system that was no longer needed because all the prophecies, typologies and foreshadows He planted in His word have been fulfilled. I tell you, if the messiah you are waiting for does come, in order to be the true messiah, he will have to fulfill everything Jesus already did.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Miciah View Post

                The New Testament prophecies confirmed that God is going to make a whole new heaven and earth, but it is just for those who have accepted His plan of redemption for the human race that has been fulfilled in the Messiah Jesus. That's why knowing what the prophecies are all about is important. It's important to walk in His ways, but if we rebel against what He has said is required for the remission of sin, we can't be pleasing Him. He said that the life is in the blood and He has given it upon the altar to make atonement for the soul, it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:11. He has never changed that requirement for the remission of sin. Jesus was wounded for our transgression...Isaiah 53:5, His soul is the offering for our sins Isaiah 53:10. Jesus is the last sacrifice. That's why the temple was destroyed. God was putting an end to a system that was no longer needed because all the prophecies, typologies and foreshadows He planted in His word have been fulfilled. I tell you, if the messiah you are waiting for does come, in order to be the true messiah, he will have to fulfill everything Jesus already did.
                Again, I am entirely unconcerned with your New Testament prophecies. That is your religion, not mine.

                God may have commanded us to make atonement sacrifices when there was a temple in Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean that this is the only way to have sins forgiven, or even that this is the heart of the matter. The sacred text is clear that sins are atoned for without blood, as when Aaron atoned with incense. Further, the whole idea of sacrifice is unnecessary.
                1. Nathan told David that his sins were forgiven BEFORE David made sacrifice.
                2. David writes TWICE that God does not desire sacrifice (Psalms 40 and 51)
                3. Hosea tells us that the words of our lips (prayers) are as calves (offerings).

                That's five verses that undo your sacrificial theology.
                Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                  Again, I am entirely unconcerned with your New Testament prophecies. That is your religion, not mine.

                  God may have commanded us to make atonement sacrifices when there was a temple in Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean that this is the only way to have sins forgiven, or even that this is the heart of the matter. The sacred text is clear that sins are atoned for without blood, as when Aaron atoned with incense. Further, the whole idea of sacrifice is unnecessary.
                  1. Nathan told David that his sins were forgiven BEFORE David made sacrifice.
                  2. David writes TWICE that God does not desire sacrifice (Psalms 40 and 51)
                  3. Hosea tells us that the words of our lips (prayers) are as calves (offerings).

                  That's five verses that undo your sacrificial theology.
                  It doesn't undo it all. Jesus was ordained the Messiah before the foundation of the world. God sees His sacrifice as the only sacrifice that can remove sins, and the sins of the people were forgiven on that basis from the beginning. The sacrifices were foreshadows of the final sacrifice made by Jesus. Again, if you don't understand how God uses typologies and foreshadows in His word, you are not going to get it. No one will be accepted by God without that sacrifice. The life is in the blood. That life in the blood of Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit your soul cannot be lifted out of this dimension, because as I said before, the neshamah that gave life to Adam was for life in this realm, it does not have the ability to transport the soul into God's presence when we die, only the Holy Spirit can do that and that is only through the blood of the Messiah.

                  Also, God did not forgive David's sin without sacrifice, he still would have had to do that. God just said He wasn't going to kill him. In the Psalms God is showing us that we can use the ritual of sacrifce in the wrong way. He still requires blood atonement, but He wants it done with the proper heart response and that is a genuine repentance, a changed heart. That's what David is talking about. People can mechanically offer their sacrifices without a genuine repentance. It does not mean that God does not require the blood atonement, He has never changed that requirement. Our praise is an offering, but in no way can that be misconstrued to mean it replaces blood sacrifice. No where in the scriptures does it say that God has ordained praise as a means to remove sin, it's always blood. "It is the blood that makes atonement for sin".

                  By the way, when I came to Jesus, I read the Old Testament for myself with no one instructing me and because I had not been pre-programmed against it, I could see the meanings of the prophecies, typologies and foreshadows myself, though the instruction of the Holy Spirit alone. It only affirmed my faith and reinforced the fact that Jesus is the Messiah.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Miciah View Post

                    It doesn't undo it all. Jesus was ordained the Messiah before the foundation of the world. God sees His sacrifice as the only sacrifice that can remove sins, and the sins of the people were forgiven on that basis from the beginning. The sacrifices were foreshadows of the final sacrifice made by Jesus. Again, if you don't understand how God uses typologies and foreshadows in His word, you are not going to get it. No one will be accepted by God without that sacrifice. The life is in the blood. That life in the blood of Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit your soul cannot be lifted out of this dimension, because as I said before, the neshamah that gave life to Adam was for life in this realm, it does not have the ability to transport the soul into God's presence when we die, only the Holy Spirit can do that and that is only through the blood of the Messiah.

                    Also, God did not forgive David's sin without sacrifice, he still would have had to do that. God just said He wasn't going to kill him. In the Psalms God is showing us that we can use the ritual of sacrifce in the wrong way. He still requires blood atonement, but He wants it done with the proper heart response and that is a genuine repentance, a changed heart. That's what David is talking about. People can mechanically offer their sacrifices without a genuine repentance. It does not mean that God does not require the blood atonement, He has never changed that requirement. Our praise is an offering, but in no way can that be misconstrued to mean it replaces blood sacrifice. No where in the scriptures does it say that God has ordained praise as a means to remove sin, it's always blood. "It is the blood that makes atonement for sin".

                    By the way, when I came to Jesus, I read the Old Testament for myself with no one instructing me and because I had not been pre-programmed against it, I could see the meanings of the prophecies, typologies and foreshadows myself, though the instruction of the Holy Spirit alone. It only affirmed my faith and reinforced the fact that Jesus is the Messiah.
                    Again, you are very good at relaying Christian teaching, but terrible at arguing for it. I gave you five verses that demolished your theology. Where is the proof of your teaching? For example, I gave you proof that David was forgiven BEFORE any atonement offering was ever given, and that indeed no atonement offering was even needed. Where is your proof to the contrary?
                    Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                    "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                      Again, you are very good at relaying Christian teaching, but terrible at arguing for it. I gave you five verses that demolished your theology. Where is the proof of your teaching? For example, I gave you proof that David was forgiven BEFORE any atonement offering was ever given, and that indeed no atonement offering was even needed. Where is your proof to the contrary?
                      The five verses you gave did not demolish my theology because my theology is based on the entire counsel of God's word that is based on sacrifice being required for the remission of sin that God instigated in Genesis, which you are ignoring. If you look at the context of David's forgiveness, it was associated with the fact that God was not going to kill him for his sin and in that sense he was forgiven, but according to the law he still would have had to offer sacrifice. God operates through His foreknowledge. He established the means of man's forgiveness and salvation from day one. Thus the forgiveness of every sin that was committed by His people is based on the final sacrifice that was made by Jesus. The sacrifices in the temple were rituals designed to prepare the people for that final sacrifice. For obviously the blood of animals is incapable of removing sin, that has to be only through an act of God as He shows us in Genesis. Our sins can only be covered by a sacrifice that is made by God Himself. You can accept it or reject it it's up to you. But as I said before, without the Holy Spirit, your soul is going to be stuck in the mud like Abel crying out from the ground after his breath (neshamah/spirit) was returned to God leaving him behind.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Miciah View Post

                        The five verses you gave did not demolish my theology because my theology is based on the entire counsel of God's word that is based on sacrifice being required for the remission of sin that God instigated in Genesis, which you are ignoring. If you look at the context of David's forgiveness, it was associated with the fact that God was not going to kill him for his sin and in that sense he was forgiven, but according to the law he still would have had to offer sacrifice. God operates through His foreknowledge. He established the means of man's forgiveness and salvation from day one. Thus the forgiveness of every sin that was committed by His people is based on the final sacrifice that was made by Jesus. The sacrifices in the temple were rituals designed to prepare the people for that final sacrifice. For obviously the blood of animals is incapable of removing sin, that has to be only through an act of God as He shows us in Genesis. Our sins can only be covered by a sacrifice that is made by God Himself. You can accept it or reject it it's up to you. But as I said before, without the Holy Spirit, your soul is going to be stuck in the mud like Abel crying out from the ground after his breath (neshamah/spirit) was returned to God leaving him behind.
                        You can keep uploading these posts,but they contain no evidence. You are basically preaching but not arguing. Thus you keep losing. If you want to say that the Tanakh teaches that sins may be forgiven ONLY through sacrifice, then you must provide verses from the Tanakh saying so. If you want to say that only the sacrifice of God himself forgives sin, then here too you must provide verses FROM THE TANAKH saying so. (Your New Testament has no authority for any of us Jews, I'm afraid.)
                        Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                        "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                          You can keep uploading these posts,but they contain no evidence. You are basically preaching but not arguing. Thus you keep losing. If you want to say that the Tanakh teaches that sins may be forgiven ONLY through sacrifice, then you must provide verses from the Tanakh saying so. If you want to say that only the sacrifice of God himself forgives sin, then here too you must provide verses FROM THE TANAKH saying so. (Your New Testament has no authority for any of us Jews, I'm afraid.)
                          I am am providing you the evidence from the Tanakh, but you are refusing to accept it. When David sinned and was "forgiven" you have to remember that every year the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies to make atonement for himself and the people. You can read it for yourself. God could forgive the sins that were confessed in the outer court throughout the year, because at the appointed time, the High Priest covered them all and himself by making a blood sacrifice for his sins and the sins of the people. That was why God could forgive David, his sins were still being covered by the yearly sacrifice, because the blood makes atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:11. God has never changed that requirement that He established in Eden. Adam and Eve were covered by a sacrifice made by God, their own efforts to cover their sins were useless. That applies to us today as well. The whole typology of the tabernacle and temple sacrifices was to prepare the people for the last sacrifice made by the Messiah Jesus. The fact that only one specially chosen priest could enter the holy of Holies which represented heaven and God's presence is a foreshadow of the one man Jesus making that final sacrifice that enables those who receive Him as their High Priest entrance with Him into heaven. Its interesting to me that the tabernacle was covered by skins, just like Adam and Eve were covered by skins provided for them by a sacrifice by God.

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