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Magical Traditions?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Thekla View Post
    Messing with the occult and spirits is dangerous. I know. I've been in their presence. It was the most frightening thing I have ever experienced in my life.
    @ Thekla,

    What is "good" or "bad", this changed in a society from time to time. And also of culture to culture. Demons e.g. were, considered dangerous in the Judaism as well in the Christianity. The ancient Rome or Greece with their polytheistic gods; however, considered the demons a kind of "adviser" before danger. As a kind of "conscience".

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by eveningdance View Post
      Christianity is, in its own form, a Magickal religion. Did Jesus not preform 'miracles' or 'magick' and then teach his followers to do the same?
      I agree, but want to note to it, that Christian Churches didn't see it as magick, they see it as miracle of God.

      Comment


      • #33
        The difference between the supernatural element of these two world views is the source. It's not necessarily the form. The forms may be and are similar.

        All things concerning communication between God and the true believer are mirrored in the alternate movements. And in some forms of error within professing Christianity it even crosses over. That is why a believer must be diligent.

        It is only natural that we within Christianity see that a person involved in the occult religions would call their "prayers" for incantations. We would also call their laying-on-of-hands for transferring. Any attempt to use one's "will" to accomplish/force a desire or purpose we see as a form of witchcraft that directly contradicts Christ's words "Thy will be done."

        A person can put themselves in an alternate consciousness state through humming like a Tibetian monk or through prolonged and extreme "praise and worship services" or speaking in tongues which is practiced often within charismatic churches and within the different religions. We see similar occult phenomena in the ministries of Hagin, Hinn, and others. Both have more or less the same effect on the human consciousness. It is easy to hone one's skills in this and have almost instantaneous results.

        One calls it connection with the All, goddess etc and the other calls it being "in the Spirit". One calls it "Shakta Put" and the other calls it "falling under the Spirit." Both are expressions of mysticism and the human mind responds in the same way to the stimuli and process.
        Who hasn't heard of statues crying oil, stigmata, supposed miracles? Within Catholicism there's the belief in transubstantiation, praying to the saints (dead) and the other six sacraments as means of transferring grace?
        So there is grounds to say that we see similar phenomena within practicing "Christians" circles.

        Whether one believes in a monotheistic religion or not does not define that religion as correct. If one defines "magic" as being in touch with the supernatural then all religions are magic in that sense. But the word doesn't hold that meaning for a Christian. Magic has purely negative connations.

        There is only one God and apart from natural theology He has revealed His thoughts within His word, the Bible. When the alternates call on their followers to be united to a cosmic All the Apostle Paul says to the Athenians, " they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stones" Sounds similar, doesn't it?

        BUT

        The difference between the supernatural element of these two world views is the source.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by O2B-likeHim View Post
          The difference between the supernatural element of these two world views is the source. It's not necessarily the form. The forms may be and are similar.

          All things concerning communication between God and the true believer are mirrored in the alternate movements. And in some forms of error within professing Christianity it even crosses over. That is why a believer must be diligent.

          It is only natural that we within Christianity see that a person involved in the occult religions would call their "prayers" for incantations. We would also call their laying-on-of-hands for transferring. Any attempt to use one's "will" to accomplish/force a desire or purpose we see as a form of witchcraft that directly contradicts Christ's words "Thy will be done."

          A person can put themselves in an alternate consciousness state through humming like a Tibetian monk or through prolonged and extreme "praise and worship services" or speaking in tongues which is practiced often within charismatic churches and within the different religions. We see similar occult phenomena in the ministries of Hagin, Hinn, and others. Both have more or less the same effect on the human consciousness. It is easy to hone one's skills in this and have almost instantaneous results.

          One calls it connection with the All, goddess etc and the other calls it being "in the Spirit". One calls it "Shakta Put" and the other calls it "falling under the Spirit." Both are expressions of mysticism and the human mind responds in the same way to the stimuli and process.
          Who hasn't heard of statues crying oil, stigmata, supposed miracles? Within Catholicism there's the belief in transubstantiation, praying to the saints (dead) and the other six sacraments as means of transferring grace?
          So there is grounds to say that we see similar phenomena within practicing "Christians" circles.

          Whether one believes in a monotheistic religion or not does not define that religion as correct. If one defines "magic" as being in touch with the supernatural then all religions are magic in that sense. But the word doesn't hold that meaning for a Christian. Magic has purely negative connations.

          There is only one God and apart from natural theology He has revealed His thoughts within His word, the Bible. When the alternates call on their followers to be united to a cosmic All the Apostle Paul says to the Athenians, " they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stones" Sounds similar, doesn't it?

          BUT

          The difference between the supernatural element of these two world views is the source.
          This is true. The only consistent differentiation in the Bible between magic and miracle is the spiritual source.

          I am curious O2B-likeHim, how did you come to know this truth?
          Last edited by ACAinstructor; 02-25-16, 01:30 AM.
          Inactive, except to upload and bump.
          I wiped my slate clean and followed only biblical data to see if Unitarianism was true. After 40 weeks, I knew it couldn't be.
          After 5 years, very few could even interact with the exegeses, so I am moving on.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by givememycafpow View Post
            Besides Wicca, what are some of the belief systems that include the practise of magic? Are there any that don't rely on god/goddess worship?
            Depending on your definition of "magic" Christianity has lots. Prayer and speaking in tongues is communicating with the spiritual world. Prophesy, casting out demons, spiritual rebirth, virgin birth, cursing boys and causing a bear attack, I could go on and on. Of course, Christianity relies on god worship.

            ​​​​​
            I want to hear it from your lips;
            What's it worth shining for?

            Rishloo - Scissorlips

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Bluemayskye View Post
              Depending on your definition of "magic" Christianity has lots. Prayer and speaking in tongues is communicating with the spiritual world. Prophesy, casting out demons, spiritual rebirth, virgin birth, cursing boys and causing a bear attack, I could go on and on. Of course, Christianity relies on god worship.

              ​​​​​
              I wrote my entire master's thesis on the definition of magic in the Bible, so why don't we use my definition, at least as a starting point when talking about the Bible's own testimony? (If you don't care about/weren't talking about how the Bible defines it, skip to my last two sentences at the bottom of this post.)

              The only 100%-consistent difference between magic and miracle in the Bible is the spiritual source.
              "Magic" cannot be emically defined because of the great breadth of time, cultures, and spiritual ideologies which constitute its context. But etically, the Bible indicates a definition of magic that goes along the lines of "efficacious invocation of the evil spiritual realm." Efficacious means it actually works. Invocation means "calling in," from the spiritual world to the mundane world. Non-efficacious invocation is parlor magic, sleight of hand, "fake" magic. If is actually works (as it did very often in the Bible, and still is capable of working today), then it is real magic.

              Bluemayskye, your second sentence above implies that the definition of "magic" ought to be, or might best be, "communicating with the spiritual world." As far as the Bible is concerned, we cannot use this definition because the Bible enjoins us to communicate with the spiritual world constantly, and yet warns against various forms of magic throughout.
              Even apart from the Bible we cannot use this definition. Because almost nobody in the past has called non-petitionary prayer "magic," regardless of the god or gods it was directed toward.
              Last edited by ACAinstructor; 10-11-17, 12:02 AM.
              Inactive, except to upload and bump.
              I wiped my slate clean and followed only biblical data to see if Unitarianism was true. After 40 weeks, I knew it couldn't be.
              After 5 years, very few could even interact with the exegeses, so I am moving on.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by ACAinstructor View Post
                I wrote my entire master's thesis on the definition of magic in the Bible, so why don't we use my definition, at least as a starting point when talking about the Bible's own testimony? (If you don't care about/weren't talking about how the Bible defines it, skip to my last two sentences at the bottom of this post.)

                The only 100%-consistent difference between magic and miracle in the Bible is the spiritual source.
                "Magic" cannot be emically defined because of the great breadth of time, cultures, and spiritual ideologies which constitute its context. But etically, the Bible indicates a definition of magic that goes along the lines of "efficacious invocation of the evil spiritual realm." Efficacious means it actually works. Invocation means "calling in," from the spiritual world to the mundane world. Non-efficacious invocation is parlor magic, sleight of hand, "fake" magic. If is actually works (as it did very often in the Bible, and still is capable of working today), then it is real magic.

                Bluemayskye, your second sentence above implies that the definition of "magic" ought to be, or might best be, "communicating with the spiritual world." As far as the Bible is concerned, we cannot use this definition because the Bible enjoins us to communicate with the spiritual world constantly, and yet warns against various forms of magic throughout.
                Even apart from the Bible we cannot use this definition. Because almost nobody in the past has called non-petitionary prayer "magic," regardless of the god or gods it was directed toward.
                Thanks for the well thought out reply! I was essentially defining "magic" as something that cannot be explained scientifically. Subjectively, the biblical definition of magic would exclude communication with the spiritual realm as that can be "explained" within the faith based system of christianity. Objectively, communication with the spiritual realm cannot be explained by any observable means. So it kinda depends on who you ask. The first definition in Merriam-Webster is "the use of means (such as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces." So according to Webster, prayer is only magic if it has any effect on the one praying.
                I want to hear it from your lips;
                What's it worth shining for?

                Rishloo - Scissorlips

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Bluemayskye View Post
                  Thanks for the well thought out reply! I was essentially defining "magic" as something that cannot be explained scientifically. Subjectively, the biblical definition of magic would exclude communication with the spiritual realm as that can be "explained" within the faith based system of christianity. Objectively, communication with the spiritual realm cannot be explained by any observable means. So it kinda depends on who you ask. The first definition in Merriam-Webster is "the use of means (such as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces." So according to Webster, prayer is only magic if it has any effect on the one praying.
                  You're welcome.
                  I found that dictionaries were very poor authorities on the definition of magic, and wildly contradicted each other to boot. Notoriously, the greatest dictionary in existence, The Oxford English Dictionary, fundamentally changed its definition between the 1st Edition in 1933 and the 2nd Edition in 1989, managing to contradict itself.

                  The OP asked, "Besides Wicca, what are some of the belief systems that include the practise of magic? Are there any that don't rely on god/goddess worship?"
                  Which, as you appear to recognize, is an unanswerable question, because there is no one definition of magic which crosses all cultures or traditions. A poster or two afterward were right to note that some Christian liturgy/ritual looks quite similar to [simpler] non-Christian magical rites. The Wiccan definition might be "efficacious interaction with the spiritual realm." But the Christian definition according to the Bible is "efficacious interaction with the evil spiritual realm."
                  Inactive, except to upload and bump.
                  I wiped my slate clean and followed only biblical data to see if Unitarianism was true. After 40 weeks, I knew it couldn't be.
                  After 5 years, very few could even interact with the exegeses, so I am moving on.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ACAinstructor View Post
                    You're welcome.
                    I found that dictionaries were very poor authorities on the definition of magic, and wildly contradicted each other to boot. Notoriously, the greatest dictionary in existence, The Oxford English Dictionary, fundamentally changed its definition between the 1st Edition in 1933 and the 2nd Edition in 1989, managing to contradict itself.

                    The OP asked, "Besides Wicca, what are some of the belief systems that include the practise of magic? Are there any that don't rely on god/goddess worship?"
                    Which, as you appear to recognize, is an unanswerable question, because there is no one definition of magic which crosses all cultures or traditions. A poster or two afterward were right to note that some Christian liturgy/ritual looks quite similar to [simpler] non-Christian magical rites. The Wiccan definition might be "efficacious interaction with the spiritual realm." But the Christian definition according to the Bible is "efficacious interaction with the evil spiritual realm."
                    You're right, dictionary definitions are fickle and not necessarily a plumb line for truth.

                    During my time in the church I always had the impression that any spiritual communication outside that belief system was extremely evil. Does that tend to be a consistent pattern across the various sects you are familiar with?
                    I want to hear it from your lips;
                    What's it worth shining for?

                    Rishloo - Scissorlips

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Bluemayskye View Post
                      During my time in the church I always had the impression that any spiritual communication outside that belief system was extremely evil. Does that tend to be a consistent pattern across the various sects you are familiar with?
                      Well, I'm familiar with many sects and traditions in America and elsewhere, and it largely depends on what civilization one is in. In America what I encountered was ignorance of what magic is, and a belief that magic does not actually exist. Because the Bible teaches human communities are able to actually alter the spiritual atmosphere in which they live by their worldview, the Positivistic West is a dry place for spiritual things efficacious in daily life, and as a result many Westerners have deluded themselves into thinking "such things don't happen anymore." The rest of the world, on the other hand, knows magic exists from their personal experience. And if and when they become followers of Jesus, they experientially realize (contra head knowledge) that communing with God is fundamentally different from magic (as well as purer, and more powerful), even if similar semantics or rituals happen to be used. And yes, to answer your question, spiritual communication outside the Kingdom of Heaven is consistently seen by genuine Christians as communication with the Kingdom of Destruction and Evil. Westerners downplay it because they don't believe it's real, and even Western Christians might be deceived by this falsehood.
                      Inactive, except to upload and bump.
                      I wiped my slate clean and followed only biblical data to see if Unitarianism was true. After 40 weeks, I knew it couldn't be.
                      After 5 years, very few could even interact with the exegeses, so I am moving on.

                      Comment

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