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The Pope credited Martin Luther

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  • The Pope credited Martin Luther


    http://www.catholicculture.org/news/...ture.org%29%29

    The temptation to “give glory to each other” and to exploit the faith for one’s own purposes is a persistent “cancer in the Church.” The Pope credited Martin Luther with rejecting “an image of the Church as an organization that can go ahead ignoring the grace of the Lord, or considering it as a possession to be taken for granted.” Returning to a theme that he had emphasized frequently in the early days of his pontificate, he said: “This temptation to build a self-referential Church, which leads to conflicts and divisions, always keeps coming back.”

    wow : you just make this stuff up!!

    345 days away from Happy Reformation Day 500th Anniversary

    do Catholics feel like the rug is being pulled form under them , one thread at a time?



    Pope Francis says he agrees with Martin Luther about justification
    http://www.dennyburk.com/pope-franci...justification/
    "I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. Perhaps some methods were not correct. But in that time, if we read the story of the Pastor, a German Lutheran who then converted when he saw reality – he became Catholic – in that time, the Church was not exactly a model to imitate. There was corruption in the Church, there was worldliness, attachment to money, to power…and this he protested. Then he was intelligent and took some steps forward justifying, and because he did this. And today Lutherans and Catholics, Protestants, all of us agree on the doctrine of justification. On this point, which is very important, he did not err. He made a medicine for the Church…"
    -Pope Francis

    Wow! Luther was right
    Luther did not err


    Carm Catholics need to catch up with the new and improved Catholic understanding of Luther

    One of the ekklēsia

  • #2
    Originally posted by tester View Post
    http://www.catholicculture.org/news/...ture.org%29%29

    The temptation to “give glory to each other” and to exploit the faith for one’s own purposes is a persistent “cancer in the Church.” The Pope credited Martin Luther with rejecting “an image of the Church as an organization that can go ahead ignoring the grace of the Lord, or considering it as a possession to be taken for granted.” Returning to a theme that he had emphasized frequently in the early days of his pontificate, he said: “This temptation to build a self-referential Church, which leads to conflicts and divisions, always keeps coming back.”

    wow : you just make this stuff up!!

    345 days away from Happy Reformation Day 500th Anniversary

    do Catholics feel like the rug is being pulled form under them , one thread at a time?



    Pope Francis says he agrees with Martin Luther about justification
    http://www.dennyburk.com/pope-franci...justification/
    "I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. Perhaps some methods were not correct. But in that time, if we read the story of the Pastor, a German Lutheran who then converted when he saw reality – he became Catholic – in that time, the Church was not exactly a model to imitate. There was corruption in the Church, there was worldliness, attachment to money, to power…and this he protested. Then he was intelligent and took some steps forward justifying, and because he did this. And today Lutherans and Catholics, Protestants, all of us agree on the doctrine of justification. On this point, which is very important, he did not err. He made a medicine for the Church…"
    -Pope Francis

    Wow! Luther was right
    Luther did not err


    Carm Catholics need to catch up with the new and improved Catholic understanding of Luther
    Hi Tester, This makes three popes in a row that I'm aware of, that have made statements like this beginning with JPII. JPII had at least on a few ocassions and his successor in Benedict I believe as well. But like much of Catholicism there is that element of 'yes you were right, but we were more right.' So perhaps one day, at least officially, Catholics will look back as the East does with the far East and say it was just a misunderstanding due to cultural and language difficulties which will be hard to sell in the West because the Western church language was one and the same at the time. I'm sure they'll reinvent (reinterpret) themselves and perhaps us too, to have whatever it is they are reaching for.

    Nic.
    1Co 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
    1Co 1:31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Nic View Post

      Hi Tester, This makes three popes in a row that I'm aware of, that have made statements like this beginning with JPII. JPII had at least on a few ocassions and his successor in Benedict I believe as well. But like much of Catholicism there is that element of 'yes you were right, but we were more right.' So perhaps one day, at least officially, Catholics will look back as the East does with the far East and say it was just a misunderstanding due to cultural and language difficulties which will be hard to sell in the West because the Western church language was one and the same at the time. I'm sure they'll reinvent (reinterpret) themselves and perhaps us too, to have whatever it is they are reaching for.

      Nic.
      right: the exact opposite understanding will labeled and seen as a clarification; not a contradiction
      One of the ekklēsia

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tester View Post
        http://www.catholicculture.org/news/...ture.org%29%29

        The temptation to “give glory to each other” and to exploit the faith for one’s own purposes is a persistent “cancer in the Church.” The Pope credited Martin Luther with rejecting “an image of the Church as an organization that can go ahead ignoring the grace of the Lord, or considering it as a possession to be taken for granted.” Returning to a theme that he had emphasized frequently in the early days of his pontificate, he said: “This temptation to build a self-referential Church, which leads to conflicts and divisions, always keeps coming back.”

        wow : you just make this stuff up!!

        345 days away from Happy Reformation Day 500th Anniversary

        do Catholics feel like the rug is being pulled form under them , one thread at a time?



        Pope Francis says he agrees with Martin Luther about justification
        http://www.dennyburk.com/pope-franci...justification/
        "I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. Perhaps some methods were not correct. But in that time, if we read the story of the Pastor, a German Lutheran who then converted when he saw reality – he became Catholic – in that time, the Church was not exactly a model to imitate. There was corruption in the Church, there was worldliness, attachment to money, to power…and this he protested. Then he was intelligent and took some steps forward justifying, and because he did this. And today Lutherans and Catholics, Protestants, all of us agree on the doctrine of justification. On this point, which is very important, he did not err. He made a medicine for the Church…"
        -Pope Francis

        Wow! Luther was right
        Luther did not err


        Carm Catholics need to catch up with the new and improved Catholic understanding of Luther
        meanwhile at CAF

        nearly 100 posts with Catholics up in arms about
        "The Pope credited Martin Luther with rejecting “an image of the Church as an organization that can go ahead ignoring the grace of the Lord, or considering it as a possession to be taken for granted.”"



        but not here: Carm Catholics know everything is just fine
        One of the ekklēsia

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by tester View Post
          http://www.catholicculture.org/news/...ture.org%29%29

          The temptation to “give glory to each other” and to exploit the faith for one’s own purposes is a persistent “cancer in the Church.” The Pope credited Martin Luther with rejecting “an image of the Church as an organization that can go ahead ignoring the grace of the Lord, or considering it as a possession to be taken for granted.” Returning to a theme that he had emphasized frequently in the early days of his pontificate, he said: “This temptation to build a self-referential Church, which leads to conflicts and divisions, always keeps coming back.”

          wow : you just make this stuff up!!

          345 days away from Happy Reformation Day 500th Anniversary

          do Catholics feel like the rug is being pulled form under them , one thread at a time?



          Pope Francis says he agrees with Martin Luther about justification
          http://www.dennyburk.com/pope-franci...justification/
          "I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. Perhaps some methods were not correct. But in that time, if we read the story of the Pastor, a German Lutheran who then converted when he saw reality – he became Catholic – in that time, the Church was not exactly a model to imitate. There was corruption in the Church, there was worldliness, attachment to money, to power…and this he protested. Then he was intelligent and took some steps forward justifying, and because he did this. And today Lutherans and Catholics, Protestants, all of us agree on the doctrine of justification. On this point, which is very important, he did not err. He made a medicine for the Church…"
          -Pope Francis

          Wow! Luther was right
          Luther did not err


          Carm Catholics need to catch up with the new and improved Catholic understanding of Luther
          "On this point", on which the pope and Luther think "he did not err", is a reference not precisely explained. "The doctrine of justification" is a big subject, and "on this point" is not defined - what "point" exactly did he mean? Our pope has consistently spoken in ways that have increased not understanding or clarity among the people, but have increased a great deal of confusion and speculations about just what he did mean.

          The Church has a very long history and a very large body of defined doctrine, and the Church is much bigger than any man in it, even her pope. I continue to trust that the Holy Spirit has allowed, if not given, us our present pope - and the divine purposes of His providence will become clearer in time. Meanwhile, I rest in the doctrines and dogmas of the Church that are clear and well-defined, I participate in the sacraments and embrace the grace God gives us through them, I happily pray with the many faithful Catholics with whom I enjoy blessed Christian fellowship, and I trust Christ and His promises made to us in His one Holy Catholic Church.

          I realize that this confusion is welcomed and celebrated among many protestants - one more tragedy flowing from the "reformation" - but God knows what He is doing in allowing it, and His ways are right.
          ... For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed;...
          But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. (Rom 13)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Thomas View Post
            ..
            I realize that this confusion is welcomed and celebrated among many protestants - one more tragedy flowing from the "reformation" - but God knows what He is doing in allowing it, and His ways are right.

            http://www.churchmilitant.com/video/...has-not-spoken The best description of the Church speak these days is vagueness. Day after day, various clergy in the Church speak in stridently UNCLEAR terms. There is a decided lack of clarity. Catholics know this.
            They hear the absence of clarity Sunday after Sunday, press release after press release, and RCIA class after RCIA class. And there is a further problem with the lack of clarity: It is the near refusal to condemn what needs to be condemned, and the problem applies across a huge spectrum of issues. From the bogus visions of Medjugorje to the schismatic existence of the SSPX to the mad ramblings of dissidents in seminaries and Catholic universities, Rome rarely slaps down anything. And the problem is that as long as something isn't condemned, the followers or adherents of said issue can say, "Well, Rome hasn't said we're condemned, so we are okay."
            ...
            "Back in the day, Rome was much more decisive, and with that decisiveness came clarity. No one was unclear once Rome had spoken. There was even the expression that "Rome has spoken, the case is closed."
            Today, that expression needs to be updated to "Rome has not spoken, so the case is continually up in the air."
            -----------------------
            One of the ekklēsia

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tester View Post


              http://www.churchmilitant.com/video/...has-not-spoken The best description of the Church speak these days is vagueness. Day after day, various clergy in the Church speak in stridently UNCLEAR terms. There is a decided lack of clarity. Catholics know this.
              They hear the absence of clarity Sunday after Sunday, press release after press release, and RCIA class after RCIA class. And there is a further problem with the lack of clarity: It is the near refusal to condemn what needs to be condemned, and the problem applies across a huge spectrum of issues. From the bogus visions of Medjugorje to the schismatic existence of the SSPX to the mad ramblings of dissidents in seminaries and Catholic universities, Rome rarely slaps down anything. And the problem is that as long as something isn't condemned, the followers or adherents of said issue can say, "Well, Rome hasn't said we're condemned, so we are okay."
              ...
              "Back in the day, Rome was much more decisive, and with that decisiveness came clarity. No one was unclear once Rome had spoken. There was even the expression that "Rome has spoken, the case is closed."
              Today, that expression needs to be updated to "Rome has not spoken, so the case is continually up in the air."
              -----------------------
              And you could have continued the quote:
              This has caused some deep problems that continue to get worse, from schismatics feeling they are in good standing, to dissidents acting as though they are in good standing, to teachers of the Faith feeling they are allowed to teach their own personal opinions, to even bishops and cardinals taking the lack of slap down as encouragement to keep preaching their heresies.

              This is all done because so many in Rome simply do not want to give offense. They have forgotten, quite clearly, the line from St. Mark's Gospel wherein Our Blessed Lord had upset the leaders. Saint Mark tells us, "They took offense at Him."
              And, I think, that unwillingness to "give offense" extends to the diocesan and parish levels as well. There is a "blandness" dominating much of what should be clear and forceful Catholic teaching today. I think such tepid blandness is so popular these days not because Scripture has been "forgotten" (which term Voris used) but because of fears that directness, clarity and truth would upset significant donors to the collection basket. Now long ago, a then-Father Ratzinger speculated (prophesied?) that maybe the Church would/needs to become smaller and poorer - but that is a trajectory that many in leadership positions do not want to see happen.
              "The church will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning.
              She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes . . . she will lose many of her social privileges. . . As a small society, [the Church] will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members...." Card. Ratzinger "The church will become small." from Faith and the Future (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2009) - Original publication date - 1969.
              ... For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed;...
              But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. (Rom 13)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tester View Post

                Carm Catholics need to catch up with the new and improved Catholic understanding of Luther
                CCC1446 Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as "the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace."

                Catholics don't understand
                that those with a renewed heart don't
                FALL into GRAVE SIN,
                so there is no need for a
                SECOND PLANK of SALVATION.


                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tester View Post
                  http://www.catholicculture.org/news/...ture.org%29%29

                  The temptation to “give glory to each other” and to exploit the faith for one’s own purposes is a persistent “cancer in the Church.” The Pope credited Martin Luther with rejecting “an image of the Church as an organization that can go ahead ignoring the grace of the Lord, or considering it as a possession to be taken for granted.” Returning to a theme that he had emphasized frequently in the early days of his pontificate, he said: “This temptation to build a self-referential Church, which leads to conflicts and divisions, always keeps coming back.”

                  wow : you just make this stuff up!!

                  345 days away from Happy Reformation Day 500th Anniversary

                  do Catholics feel like the rug is being pulled form under them , one thread at a time?



                  Pope Francis says he agrees with Martin Luther about justification
                  http://www.dennyburk.com/pope-franci...justification/
                  "I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. Perhaps some methods were not correct. But in that time, if we read the story of the Pastor, a German Lutheran who then converted when he saw reality – he became Catholic – in that time, the Church was not exactly a model to imitate. There was corruption in the Church, there was worldliness, attachment to money, to power…and this he protested. Then he was intelligent and took some steps forward justifying, and because he did this. And today Lutherans and Catholics, Protestants, all of us agree on the doctrine of justification. On this point, which is very important, he did not err. He made a medicine for the Church…"
                  -Pope Francis

                  Wow! Luther was right
                  Luther did not err


                  Carm Catholics need to catch up with the new and improved Catholic understanding of Luther
                  All those terrible "rigid" critics that only see things in "black and white", like the dogmas of the Catholic Church, like adultery!

                  Thank God Martin Luther showed up to reform that Catholic Church that as an organization was "ignoring the grace of the Lord,"

                  How can anyone who calls them self a Catholic not see that this impostor is a flaming apostate.

                  Bergoglio is NOT CATHOLIC, and neither is the religion that he heads!
                  "The Holy Roman Church condemns, rejects, anathematizes and declares to be outside the Body of Christ, which is the Church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views.” Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence

                  Comment

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