Codex Sinaiticus - the facts

[TwoNoteableCorruptions]

He likes his job.

(Plus, he may not even know for sure.)

It must be amazingly hard to come up to speed to the advanced technology of c. 1970.

Have you seen the rag-tag pictures of the landing module?

It is a wonderful topic, but if we go into it in more depth, we should move the thread.

I won't say what I'm thinking, because you'll be offended.

Don't waste your breath on me with this nonsense.

This moon landing fraud stuff is bordering on straight jacket - padded cell level, "oh I just had coffee with the Easter bunny"? ?...as far as I'm concerned.

Can I be any clearer?

 

[Shoonra]

It's a strait jacket.

 

[Maestroh]

"On another note, throughout the centuries, lots of copies of scripture were found, which were quite different from the Sinaiticus. But starting after the “discovery” of Sinaiticus, suddenly the vast majority of 20th century finds mostly matched Sinaiticus. Is that a coincidence? Or could counterfeiters have just gotten much better —maybe trained to do just that, and paid to do this by some big group with a big goal in mind?" (Daniels, Is the World's Oldest Bible a Fake?," pg. 264, Kindle edition)

You’d think a moron would know that THE MORE you make THE MORE LIKELY you get caught. This is why the whole JFK assassination conspiracy doesn’t work as well.

True story - Bob Groden, a dolt who has made a cottage industry selling books about the JFK killing was called into the OJ Simpson civil trial as a “photographic expert.” Not only did the prosecution blow him to bits with resume exaggerations, they nuked him twice, first by getting him to admit that under no circumstances was the photo of Simpson wearing Bruno Magli shoes legit and he’d never admit the photo was real - and then showing him photo after photo from different cameras at the same game, all showing Simpson wearing shoes he claimed he didn’t even own.

Groden to this day has never admitted to being wrong about the couple of dozen photos.

Never mind it defies logic.

 

[Unbound68]

I bought it twice by accident the second time.

All you need is my review:

Bible Versions Disc Board-Book Review: "Is The 'World's Oldest Bible' A Fake?"

One of the most amusing facets of the "Star Wars" movies (particularly the original trilogy) was the Stormtroopers, those protectors of the evil Lord

www.tapatalk.com

I've read that review a few times in the last year and thoroughly enjoy it each time. I only have 2 complaints (not really "complaints" as much as just wishing you woulda choke slammed Daniels on the following) :

1) you didn't point out the hypocrisy of Daniels using the argument about the conflicting dates of Tobit's death and date of birth as "proof" that the book, and he, are fake, when the same questions can be asked about Simonides's and Benedict's dates of birth and dates of death.

But there are contradictions even when you ask the simplest of questions. For instance, “How old was Tobit when he died?” ​

​

According to the description in 1:4, Tobit was “still a young man”[64] in 928 BC. But according to 1:2, he was taken into captivity in 722 BC, 206 years later. Then he did all sorts of good works up through 1:21, another 41 years, until 681 BC, making Tobit about 250 years old. And that’s even before the story starts! ​

​

Of course, that is a huge problem, since according to Tobit 14:2 he was only 62 years old (Sinaiticus) or 58 (Vaticanus and Alexandrinus) or 56 (Latin Vulgate) at that same point! That is 188-194 years younger than Tobit’s age, based on 1:1-5. ​

​

So was he born before 928 BC, or in the 740s BC? They can’t all be right. This story sounds fake, along with Tobit himself." (Daniels, pg. 237, Kindle)​

2) you didn't point out Daniels's hypocrisy when he goes out of his way to point out the "Jesuit-educated Norman Geisler" (pg. 169), the "Jesuit editor of Tobit in the CEB" (pg. 237), and the "Jesuit commentator of the CEB" (pg. 246), but doesn't mention in any of his three references to "brother Jack McElroy" (pp. 76, 250, 259) that McElroy is also Jesuit-trained!

I’m a Jesuit-trained (high school) former Roman Catholic. (McElroy, Which Bible Would Jesus Use, pg. 8; Kindle edition)​

 

[cjab]

t. This story sounds fake, along with Tobit himself." (Daniels, pg. 237, Kindle)

Yes, Tobit is a story. A story is apocryphal. Daniels betrays ignorance of the distinction between the Apocrypha and the Canon. Historical inaccurasies are common not just to Tobit but to the genre of Jewish apocryphal romance/theological treatise. However there is a strong case for saying that 1:4 does not contain a historical anachronism.

Sinaiticus 1:4 states "when I was young and when I lived in my country Israel, all my ancestral tribe Naphtali abandoned my ancestral house of David and Jerusalem...." This doesn't, per se, relate directly to Jeroboam's setting up of the golden calves in the 10th century BC.

It could have been that the total apostasy of Naphtali came only in the 8th century, and occured in Tobits's youth. This would make sense, as Tobit goes on to reveal in 1:6 "And only I alone often went to Jerusalem to the festivals just as it had been written for all Israel as an everlasting decree."

There is no reason why others in Naphtali should not also have worshipped in Jerusalem before the 8th century, even during the era of Jeroboam's golden calves.

 

[TwoNoteableCorruptions]

Here's some interesting quotes.

Tischendorf
The Discovery of the Sinaitic Manuscript & Other writings
Page 23

"In visiting the library of the monastery, in the month of May, 1844, I perceived in the middle of the great hall a large and wide BASKET full of old parchments, and the librarian, who was a man of information, told me that two HEAPS of papers like these, mouldered by time, had been already committed to the flames. What was my surprise to find amid this HEAP of papers a considerable number of sheets of a copy of the Old Testament in Greek, which seemed to me to be one of the most ancient that I had ever seen..."


Vitaliano Donati 1761
"Atti della Reale Accademia delle scienze di Torino"
Literal Translation
Page 482, Volume 8, 1873

"...Book 2, Page 27: “In this monastery I found the-largest amount of parchment codices, many of-which are hidden-away in a library, and others loose-in-a-jumble [Or: “helter-skelter, higgledy-piggledy, pell-mell” “randomly” “every which way” “disordered way”] in a dreadful [Or: “atrocious” “lousy” “execrable” “stinking” “nasty” “very bad”] wharehouse-facility. Almost all-of-them are parchments,
for there greatest part Greek-ones..."
​

Uspensky via
Κ. T. Nikolsky via
Professor Alexey Afanasyevich Dmitrievsky
"Scientific description of the Greek manuscripts of the Sinai Monastery: Review of the work of Beneshevich"
1912

"Porfiry [Uspensky], presented 6 sheets from the Psalter to the late liturgist Archpriest Κ. T. Nikolsky, making a handwritten note: “From the library of the Sinai Monastery taken on, by memory in 1850, from A HEAP of various scraps [Or: "fragments"],
very ancient "almost the 5th century" (p. 651)..."


Professor Alexey Afanasyevich Dmitrievsky
Journey through the East and its Scientific Results
Report on a business trip abroad in 1887/1888

"Manuscripts parchment in format, and, therefore, extremely diverse in content lie in chests; bombic and paper manuscripts, manuscripts in Slavic, Arabic and Georgian languages are placed in exactly the same way on the shelves in cabinets; manuscripts in other languages and extracts from manuscripts are either PILED UP or arranged in random bundles IN BASKETS..."

​

Heaps.

In baskets.

Disordered and loose.

Fragments.

NOTE: the Vitaliano quote is from the same text as his Codex Sinaiticus sighting.

​

 

[TwoNoteableCorruptions]

This link (& followup) given by a poster on tapatalk containing articles written by Glenn Conjurske revealing the true character of Simonides by contemporaneous persons ("Codex Sinaiticus: Ancient or Modern") should interest you.

It appears that just about every identity that Simonides stole (committed identity theft of) and gave false testimony about came forward and called his bluff!

It would be fantastic to ? get the exact references for the quotes from ? the real Sinai Kallinikos, Dionysius, etc etc from this article???????

 

[Maestroh]

They had thousands of manuscripts, in many languages, to which they paid little attention.

So.

Starting in the early 1840s, Sinaiticus was given super special attention.

Anybody else catch the doublemindedness in this carefully parsed claim?

See, if he's wrong, he argues from this that "early 1840s" meant "1844" and "Sinaiticus was given super special attention" means "Tischendorf found it." Always ask yourself what he's hiding from you. His obsession with accusing others of HIDING things is to distract you from his use of that very tactic.

And they all knew Greek and Arabic was another significant language at the monastery.

You don't know any of this.

So the neglect of other manuscripts tells you nothing about who placed notes, or even manuscript textual features, on Sinaiticus in the 1840s and 1850s.

It doesn't matter THE NAME OF THE PERSON ("who"), it only matters the TIME OF THE INSCRIPTION.

The Arabic notes could easily have been placed on the manuscript after Uspensky saw the manuscript in 1845 and 1850.

You're going Full Wilbur Pickering here, I could just as easily say:
The Arabic notes could easily have been placed on the manuscript ANY TIME after the manuscript was written.

Once again, your pretentiousness is simply embarrassing. "Uspenski didn't mention" is the most ahistorical answer to an historical inquiry in the history of history.

 

[Maestroh]

Your eyes are closed,

Insult/accusation #1 in this post

and your attempt to counter various evidences, while sincere, have been generally weak.

An opinion nested with an instance of mind-reading.

There is literally zero substance to this, just an old man yelling at his iCloud.

Some have to be reposted since they were on the thread that was deleted. Many new ones are in process.

I'd love to watch you at a blackjack table as this mind-numbing nonsense escapes your lips.

"The blackjack dealer didn't mention what card was unseen and his attempts, while sincere, were very weak even though he turned over 21 and I went bust."

 

[Shoonra]

The undiluted claptrap from Avery about the inauthenticity of Sinaiticus is now growing very wearisome. He has outstayed his welcome on this thread.

I said something along this line and so have others. The remedy is simply for every sensible person to stop cold giving this claptrap an audience, or responding to it, or adding to the thread, and so forth.

 

[Steven Avery]

Here’s some advice, Oliver Stone Smug:

Thanks for demonstrating 100% that you are not in any sense Christian, as in your recent wacky and sick vulgar sex life post.

Here, your attack on forum moderation is reported.
Your posts are in a sense a wonderful test of CARM moderation.

 

[cjab]

Your posts are in a sense a wonderful test of CARM moderation.

As are your conspiracy theories. (I notice your fake-moon-landing conspiracy theory got removed.)

 

[Unbound68]

As are your conspiracy theories. (I notice your fake-moon-landing conspiracy theory got removed.)

From the "Conspiracy Theories" forum, no less! ROFLOL!

 

[Unbound68]

Thanks for demonstrating 100% that you are not in any sense Christian, as in your recent wacky and sick vulgar sex life post.

Typically the ones in such a hurry to remove someone from the Church and cast stones are themselves guilty of a similar sin, or worse.

Hence, John 8. Ironically, this is one of your pet KJV defense passages.

 

[cjab]

From the "Conspiracy Theories" forum, no less! ROFLOL!

Avery doesn't seem to grasp that just because someone said 'X', it doesn't give anyone else a God-given right to start a conspiracy theory. John 3:11 "“I assure you: We speak what We know and We testify to what We have seen" i.e. not what we conspire to conjecture in ignorance.

 

[Unbound68]

Thanks for demonstrating 100% that you are not in any sense Christian, as in your recent wacky and sick vulgar sex life post.

Here, your attack on forum moderation is reported.
Your posts are in a sense a wonderful test of CARM moderation.

And by the way, it’s a bit hypocritical for you to cry about a post that offends you, and then respond to it anyway.

 

[cjab]

And by the way, it’s a bit hypocritical for you to cry about a post that offends you, and then respond to it anyway.

Indeed, conspiracy theorists are in the business of making others out to be liars, often without an iota of proof. They should be able to demonstrate a capacity to take what they are resolved to meet out.

 

[Steven Avery]

As are your conspiracy theories. (I notice your fake-moon-landing conspiracy theory got removed.)

Likely because of a sick, vulgar “sex life” post put in by a non-Christian that had to be reported.

And I may try again to open the moon landing discussion.

 

[cjab]

Likely because of a sick, vulgar “sex life” post put in by a non-Christian that had to be reported.

And I may try again to open the moon landing discussion.

You realize the monarch (King James I of England) who commissioned the KJV had a "sick vulgar sex life"? He also wrote a stupid book on witchcraft, called Demonology, 1597. He began his book:

The feaefull aboundinge at this time in this countrie, of these detestable slaves of the Devil, the Witches or enchanters, hath moved me (beloved reader) to dispatch in post, this following treatise of mine (...) to resolve the doubting (...) both that such assaults of Satan are most certainly practised, and that the instrument thereof merits most severely to be punished.

This gave rise to numerous witches being hanged for causing death through the use of familiars, and such like, by the English legal system (and in the US) in the following century, following a deranged belief in the power of the occult by the legal system, which Parliament later saw fit to brand as a conspiracy theory (in the Witchcraft Act 1735 (9 Geo. 2 c. 5) which made it a crime for a person to claim that any human being had magical powers or was guilty of practising the kind of witchcraft extolled by King James I. Such are the danger of wild conspiracy theories: innocent people get harmed.

Don't you think it's ironic that the commissioner of the KJV was himself entangled in occult conspiracy theories of a most deplorable nature?

 

[TwoNoteableCorruptions]

Likely because of a sick, vulgar “sex life” post put in by a non-Christian that had to be reported.

And I may try again to open the moon landing discussion.

Still no side by side comparison of the St Catherine's monastery Arabic manuscripts with the St Catherine's monastery Sinaiticus Arabic notes?

Steven?