November 25, 2023

Dant01

Dant01

Well-known member
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Today is the great day of atonement, a.k.a. Yom Kippur

This day is not like Xmas or New Year's or Birthdays. Absolutely do not wish your
Jewish acquaintances a happy Yom Kippur because today is especially set aside for
them to be disgusted with themselves. (Lev 16:31 & 23:27-29)

It's okay to wish them a satisfactory day of atonement, but definitely not a pleasant
experience. In point of fact, it is curse-worthy for Jews to be pleased with themselves
on Yom Kippur; so don't encourage them.
_
 
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Before proceeding, I must first apologize for dating the wrong month for Yom
Kippur 2023. It's actually in September rather than November.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

FAQ: Isn't Judaism equally as useful as Christianity for sinners seeking God's
forgiveness? Isn't that the whole purpose of Yom Kippur, a.k.a. the Day of
Atonement?

REPLY: Pinning one's hopes on the Day Of Atonement is futile. For one thing:
there's no one to perform the ritual seeing as how there is neither a Temple nor a
fully functioning Aaronic high priest on duty in Jerusalem at this time. In point of
fact, neither of those two essential elements of the Day of Atonement have been in
Jerusalem since 70 AD. But that's not the worst of it.

The original sacrificial system was effective-- to a point --for addressing the
peoples' actions, and for sanitizing their bodies, but totally ineffective for
addressing the people themselves, viz: their persons, the core of their being.

When Adam tasted the forbidden fruit, his perception of decency underwent a
radical change. Whereas before, he was comfortable seen undressed; afterwards he
was uncomfortable seen naked even by his wife.

The thing is: Adam's moral compass went awry, i.e. his conscience became
humanistic.

● Gen 3:22 . . And The Lord God said: The man has now become like one of us,
knowing good and evil.

In other words: Adam began looking to his own intuition for moral direction instead
of looking to his maker, viz: Adam became a tin God.

Point being: none of the Levitical system's rituals address the corruption inherent
within the human conscience that came about by means of the forbidden fruit
incident.

● Heb 9:13-14 . .The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on
those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit
offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to
death, so that we may serve the living God.

The Greek word translated "consciences" basically pertains to mental activity
especially as it pertains to moral perception. So we're not talking about outwardly
sinful behavior here. (cf. Rom 2:16 and Heb 4:12)
_
 
Dant01 said:
FAQ: Isn't Judaism equally as useful as Christianity for sinners seeking God's
forgiveness? Isn't that the whole purpose of Yom Kippur, a.k.a. the Day of
Atonement?
Click to expand...
That would be a gross oversimplification. God gave us Yom Kippur because it is helpful. But the key to forgiveness is repentance. The difference between the righteous man and the wicked man is that the righteous man repents, and the wicked man does not. Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man falleth seven times, and riseth up again, But the wicked stumble under adversity.

Let's look for a moment at the story of David and the prophet Nathan. David had committed adultery with Bathsheba, and then had sent her husband Uriah to his death so that he could marry her. The prophet Nathan goes to David, and uses an allegory to reveal to David the depth of his sin. David's heart is moved, and he exclaims "I have sinned against the LORD."

Now what does Nathan then say to David? Quick, go offer a sin sacrifice so that you can be forgiven? No, he doesn't say that. Does he say, Well God will forgive you on Yom Kippur? No, he doesn't say that either. Instead he says to David, "The LORD has taken away your sin." So God forgave David without any sacrifice at all, based solely on his repentance.

The sacrificial system is meant to be a help, not a hindrance. Psychologically, human beings do better if we have concrete steps we can take to deal with facing our flaws, and being restored to the good graces of God. In the case of Yom Kippur, it is a day specifically set aside for us to deal with God regarding the sins of Israel. While we do personally introspect on Yom Kippur, its key is the communal connection -- going to God not as an individual but as a People. All the various prayers of repentance are said in the plural, we, not the singular, I. By facing our sins on Yom Kippur as a collective, rather than individuals, it strengthens the Jewish people.

Sorry for the length of the post -- I personally hate long posts. But it was necessary because I needed to address two things: repentance (not sacrifice) being the heart of forgiveness, and the purpose of Yom Kippur.
 
Dant01 said:
Today is the great day of atonement, a.k.a. Yom Kippur

This day is not like Xmas or New Year's or Birthdays. Absolutely do not wish your
Jewish acquaintances a happy Yom Kippur because today is especially set aside for
them to be disgusted with themselves. (Lev 16:31 & 23:27-29)
Click to expand...
Interesting. Being disgusted with oneself isn't mentioned in these verses. It looks like you don't know what you're talking about, let alone you got the day for Yom Kippur wrong for this year.

Dant01 said:
It's okay to wish them a satisfactory day of atonement, but definitely not a pleasant
experience. In point of fact, it is curse-worthy for Jews to be pleased with themselves
on Yom Kippur; so don't encourage them.
Click to expand...
Again, you don't know what you're talking about. The day brings atonement for earnest repentance.
 
Dant01 said:
● Heb 9:13-14 . .The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on
those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit
offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to
death, so that we may serve the living God.

The Greek word translated "consciences" basically pertains to mental activity
especially as it pertains to moral perception. So we're not talking about outwardly
sinful behavior here. (cf. Rom 2:16 and Heb 4:12)
_
Click to expand...
You do understand that Christians continued to sin. Jesus' blood hasn't helped at all.
 
Jewjitzu said:
You do understand that Christians continued to sin. Jesus' blood hasn't helped at all.
Click to expand...
Without the shedding of blood there is no atonement for your sins. All you do is cover them on the day of atonement. Atonement today can only come from the Messiah Yeshua. Repent from your errors.
 
SPOKENWORD said:
Without the shedding of blood there is no atonement for your sins.
Click to expand...
False. There are several examples in Tanakh of forgiveness without the need for blood.

Since you're referencing Lev 17:11, blood sacrifice requires an altar, per the commandment, when blood is used as a means of atonement.

Obedience is better than sacrifice.

SPOKENWORD said:
All you do is cover them on the day of atonement. Atonement today can only come from the Messiah Yeshua. Repent from your errors.
Click to expand...
What's interesting is that Jesus' supposed blood sacrifice didn't follow the requirement in the commandment, and Christians still sin and die.
 
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I've dialogued with a number of Jews from time to time during my 26+ years of
activity on internet forums and message boards. They all sincerely believed their
God-- because He's supreme --has the right to arbitrarily practice favoritism, bias,
and miscarriages of justice. It simply never occurred to them that their God might
actually have a legitimate basis for letting guys like Cain and David get by with a
slap on the wrist for murder and adultery. And Moses? Well; to my knowledge, God
never did get around to confronting him for the unlawful death of that Egyptian.
_
 
Dant01 said:
.
I've dialogued with a number of Jews from time to time during my 26+ years of
activity on internet forums and message boards. They all sincerely believed their
God-- because He's supreme --has the right to arbitrarily practice favoritism, bias,
and miscarriages of justice. It simply never occurred to them that their God might
actually have a legitimate basis for letting guys like Cain and David get by with a
slap on the wrist for murder and adultery. And Moses? Well; to my knowledge, God
never did get around to confronting him for the unlawful death of that Egyptian.
_
Click to expand...
Well, since you created this OP regarding Yom Kippur, and then personally messaged us you didn't want to discuss the topic, then this topic and OP is pretty done for you.

However, if you want to discuss a different topic, then create a new OP.
 
SPOKENWORD said:
Without the shedding of blood there is no atonement for your sins.
Click to expand...
Not true. We have instances in the Torah where atonement is made without blood. One example would be that the poor routinely brought sin offerings of grain for atonement. Another example is when God punishes Israel with a plague, and Aaron makes atonement for Israel with incense.

The doctrine that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins" comes from the New Testament, and conflicts with the Torah.
 
Dant01 said:
.
I've dialogued with a number of Jews
Click to expand...
I have my doubts about this. Why? Because after receiving just one post from me that discussed your opening post with you, you sent me a PM telling me you were blocking me because I was irritating.

And someone, someone, needs to let this guy know that we try to keep threads on topic. If he wants to start a new subject, its fine, but the standard operating procedure is to then start a new thread.
 
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Regarding Hosea 14:2-3

Return, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take
words with yourselves and return to the Lord. Say, "You shall forgive all iniquity and
teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.
(Chabad.org)

And:

Return, Israel, unto Hashem your God, for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take
words with you and return to Hashem; say to Him, "May You forgive all iniquity and
accept good [intentions] and let our lips substitute for bulls." (Stone Tanach © 1996)

There are conscientious Jews sincerely believing that passage in Hosea repeals the
entire God-given book of Leviticus; including Yom Kippur. However, it is a rabbinical
rule that prophetical writings that came along after the covenant that Moses' people
agreed upon with God per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy can neither
overrule, supplant, nor annul the Law.

Also:

● Deut 4:2 . .You shall not add anything to what I command you or take anything away
from it, but keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I enjoin upon you.

● Deut 5:29-30 . . Be careful, then, to do as the Lord your God has commanded you. Do
not turn aside to the right or to the left: follow only the path that the Lord your God has
enjoined upon you.

● Deut 27:26 . . Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying
them out.

● Mal 4:4 . . Be mindful of the Teaching of My servant Moses, whom I charged at Horeb
with laws and rules for all Israel.
_
 
Dant01 said:
.
Regarding Hosea 14:2-3

Return, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take
words with yourselves and return to the Lord. Say, "You shall forgive all iniquity and
teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.
(Chabad.org)

And:

Return, Israel, unto Hashem your God, for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take
words with you and return to Hashem; say to Him, "May You forgive all iniquity and
accept good [intentions] and let our lips substitute for bulls." (Stone Tanach © 1996)

There are conscientious Jews sincerely believing that passage in Hosea repeals the
entire God-given book of Leviticus; including Yom Kippur. However, it is a rabbinical
rule that prophetical writings that came along after the covenant that Moses' people
agreed upon with God per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy can neither
overrule nor annul the Law.

Also:

● Deut 4:2 …You shall not add anything to what I command you or take anything away
from it, but keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I enjoin upon you.

● Deut 5:29-30 …Be careful, then, to do as the Lord your God has commanded you. Do
not turn aside to the right or to the left: follow only the path that the Lord your God has
enjoined upon you.

● Deut 27:26 . . Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying
them out.

● Mal 4:4 …Be mindful of the Teaching of My servant Moses, whom I charged at Horeb
with laws and rules for all Israel.
_
Click to expand...
Sorry, but like I said before. You dropped out of discussing Yom Kippur, and now going off on a tangent. Create a new OP and I will gladly discuss anything you want.

I'm just ignoring you going forward here.
 
Dant01 said:
There are conscientious Jews sincerely believing that passage in Hosea repeals the
entire God-given book of Leviticus; including Yom Kippur.
Click to expand...
There is no such thing as a conscientious religious Jew who thinks Leviticus has been repealed by Hosea. You have a profound, profound misunderstanding of Judaism. I suggest that you use your time in this forum to ask questions about the Jews here, and learn more about it.
 
Open Heart said:
There is no such thing as a conscientious religious Jew who thinks Leviticus has been repealed by Hosea. You have a profound, profound misunderstanding of Judaism. I suggest that you use your time in this forum to ask questions about the Jews here, and learn more about it.
Click to expand...
Ironically, what he's complaining about is what Paul, Jesus, and Christianity have done - abrogation of the law. They base it on the prophet Jeremiah and what they see as a change, a new covenant, contradicting Moses.

Isn't that hilarious ??
 
Jewjitzu said:
False. There are several examples in Tanakh of forgiveness without the need for blood.

Since you're referencing Lev 17:11, blood sacrifice requires an altar, per the commandment, when blood is used as a means of atonement.

Obedience is better than sacrifice.


What's interesting is that Jesus' supposed blood sacrifice didn't follow the requirement in the commandment, and Christians still sin and die.
Click to expand...
Yes Christian still sin and will die. But the Good news for Christians is that our sins are covered and paid for by the blood of Jesus and we will live forever in the presence of God. All that blood of goats and lambs do nothing today for Jews. There is only one acceptable before the Father whose blood atones for your sins. Repent and accept Jesus as your Lord And savior. There is no other way for you.
 
SPOKENWORD said:
Yes Christian still sin and will die. But the Good news for Christians is that our sins are covered and paid for by the blood of Jesus and we will live forever in the presence of God. All that blood of goats and lambs do nothing today for Jews. There is only one acceptable before the Father whose blood atones for your sins. Repent and accept Jesus as your Lord And savior. There is no other way for you.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but Jesus' blood wasn't applied to the altar per the commandment. Not that human blood is acceptable anyway.
 
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