In Romans chapters 9-11 where is Paul ever speaking of the whole nation of Israel?

[docphin5]

Your big problem here is that you are in love with human reasoning and theorizing with things that don't amount to a hill of beans and also that will never contribute to your knowing the truth of God's word.

I am guilty as charged. For I find it impossible to know the truth of God’s word without using the rational side of my brain and theorizing different explanations in order to work out the best, most reliable one. I am unlike you who apparently knows absolute truth through some spontaneous event not involving any thinking at all. Must be nice to be you.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

I am guilty as charged. For I find it impossible to know the truth of God’s word without using the rational side of my brain and theorizing different explanations in order to work out the best, most reliable one. I am unlike you who apparently knows absolute truth through some spontaneous event not involving any thinking at all. Must be nice to be you.

Why then did Paul tell us in 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3 that God has chosen the weak and foolish things of this world to confound the wisdom of the wise of this world?

The reason why God did this should be obvious, it is because they are the peop;le who will seek and trust God for the wisdom and knowledge instead of trusting in their own intellect and reasoning processes.


I find this to be the biggest problem with those who profess Christianity in the world today, for they not utilizing the mind of God that was in Christ by the Holy Spirit and instead they are doing their own thinking and reasoning with the natural mind.

What they are doing, is substituting their own intellect and human reasoning for the right way of learning through the Holy Spirit and that is also why they are all in disagrement on many issues of the scriptures as well.

This is exactly what the church at Corinth was doing likewise and that is why they were in divisions also and although the churches don't want to acknowledge this and call their divisions "denominations" they are nevertheless divisions just the same and it is because they are doing exactly what the church of Corinth was doing.

What you need to do is give all of that up and start asking and seeking and waiting and trusting for God to lead you into all truth by his Spirit, because it is obvious that your method isn't working for you, you might think it is but it isn't, for you don't seam to have a clue about what Paul is really saying in Romans 9-11 at all.

You need to get your own thinking and that of other men out of the way so that you will hear what God is revealing to you from his word instead and that is part of walking in the Spirit and not the flesh, for the flesh has to do with your natural mind and effort and which is worthless.


You need to read 1 Corinthians 2 very closely, for Paul very clearly instructs true believers to utilize the mind of Christ instead of their own minds and this is available to every true believer and not just me and there are many who are learning this way also but all of them are a different levels in this process.

 

[docphin5]

NO. There is absolutely nothing in Romans to suggest such a thing. The issue at hand is whether Gentiles must be circumcised and come under the Law (like a Gentile convert to Judaism did). Paul's purpose in Romans, rather, is to defend his ministry to the Gentiles apart from the Law. His point is to demonstrate that Gentiles may become a part of the people of God apart from circumcision and the Law. The righteousness of God comes to Jew and Gentile alike quite apart from the Law. Indeed, even Jewish Christians are themselves no longer under the Law. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, that is, there is no distinction between them, nothing to distinguish one from the other - such as the Law.

And that all falls under the question, Why are Gentiles receiving Yeshua in greater numbers under Paul’s theology rather than historically under traditional Jewish-Christian theology? The Jewish-Christians in Rome were Judaizers who most likely still practiced circumcision, sabbaths, Jewish feast, etc. whereas, Gentiles were not required to do so by Paul. He had to explain how that is possible from Jewish scriptures.

Moreover, Paul wanted to make a case for his understanding of scripture to the Jewish-Christians in Rome before the elder apostles from Jerusalem poisened their minds against him. Hence, his epistle to the Romans is the only treatise he wrote free to express his ideas systematically without prejudice or bias. Whereas, in all his other authentic letters he is defending his ministry from the elder apostles in Jerusalem, namely, Peter, Paul, and James.

 

[docphin5]

Why then did Paul tell us in 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3 that God has chosen the weak and foolish things of this world to confound the wisdom of the wise of this world?

Because he is referring to the Sophia mythology in which Christ descends into materiality that his audience was keenly aware of but was subsequently suppressed and destroyed by the catholic church until rediscovered in the Nag Hammadi and arguably in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Sophia in Greek = Wisdom in English is interpreted by Paul to be the inner Christ in Hebrew scripture.

Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God (1 cor 1:30)​

It is beyond the scope of this OP but you will probably never know about it since you only read your Bible. This is an example when culture and history of apostolic times are critical components to understanding what the Bible means. Something that you fail to recognize.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

NO. There is absolutely nothing in Romans to suggest such a thing. The issue at hand is whether Gentiles must be circumcised and come under the Law (like a Gentile convert to Judaism did). Paul's purpose in Romans, rather, is to defend his ministry to the Gentiles apart from the Law. His point is to demonstrate that Gentiles may become a part of the people of God apart from circumcision and the Law. The righteousness of God comes to Jew and Gentile alike quite apart from the Law. Indeed, even Jewish Christians are themselves no longer under the Law. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, that is, there is no distinction between them, nothing to distinguish one from the other - such as the Law.

That is it exactly and in Romans 9-11, Paul is revealing that now in Christ Jesus and by God's grace the Gentiles are just as much a part of Israel as the Jews are and not only so, but that God will use the Gentile believers to reach out to those of Israel elect that haven't yet believed in Christ.


There is only one single solitary Olive Tree now that represents NT Israel of the Spirit and it includes both Jews and Gentiles who have repented and believed the gospel message amd Paul never speaks of any separation between them now and he even says the same exact thing in Ephessians 2:11-22 as well.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

And that all falls under the question, Why are Gentiles receiving Yeshua in greater numbers under Paul’s theology rather than historically under traditional Jewish-Christian theology? The Jewish-Christians in Rome were Judaizers who most likely still practiced circumcision, sabbaths, Jewish feast, etc. whereas, Gentiles were not required to do so by Paul. He had to explain how that is possible from Jewish scriptures.

Moreover, Paul wanted to make a case for his understanding of scripture to the Jewish-Christians in Rome before the elder apostles from Jerusalem poisened their minds against him. Hence, his epistle to the Romans is the only treatise he wrote free to express his ideas systematically without prejudice or bias. Whereas, in all his other authentic letters he is defending his ministry from the elder apostles in Jerusalem, namely, Peter, Paul, and James.

Here is the answer to that question.


It is because it is better if someone has no knowledge of God at all than to have a false knowledge of God and Jesus actually said this in so many word when he told the leaders of Israel that if the words and miracles that he had done among them had of been done in Sodom and Gomorrah, they would have repented long ago in sack cloth and ashes.


Why?

Because those who have a false faith don't see themselves as having a false faith and this makes them harder to convince than someone who has none at all and therefore when the truth comes around to them, they will reject it whereas those who have no prior knowledge or faith, will accept it much easier.

This is also why Jesus told them, "they who are whole have no need of a physician" and that was and still is their problem, they don't see themselves as needing the truth or a right relationship with God becasue they are deceived into thinking they already have it and the same problem exists in the churches today likewise.

Now, I got all of that by seeking and asking and trusting God to reveal his truth to me from the scripture and not by my own intellectual human reasoning about all of it and which is nothing but a waste of time and effort.


Some time or another we who truly believe have to learn to trust God for all of this instead of thinking we need to figure it out with our own human intellect and human reasoning processes and it is called Walking In the Spirit by faith in God to deliver rather than trusting in the flesh.,

 

[docphin5]

That is it exactly and in Romans 9-11, Paul is revealing that now in Christ Jesus and by God's grace the Gentiles are just as much a part of Israel as the Jews are and not only so, but that God will use the Gentile believers to reach out to those of Israel elect that haven't yet believed in Christ.


There is only one single solitary Olive Tree now that represents NT Israel of the Spirit and it includes both Jews and Gentiles who have repented and believed the gospel message amd Paul never speaks of any separation between them now and he even says the same exact thing in Ephessians 2:11-22 as well.

Did you miss the part where the “natural” state of the olive tree is Jewish and the unnatural Gentile branches were grafted in under Paul’s ministry.

 

[docphin5]

Now, I got all of that by seeking and asking and trusting God to reveal his truth to me from the scripture and not by my own intellectual human reasoning about all of it and which is nothing but a waste of time and effort.

Please elaborate how God reveals his truth to you without using your human faculty of reason. Are you claiming that you understand more by thinking less?

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Did you miss the part where the “natural” state of the olive tree is Jewish and the unnatural Gentile branches were grafted in under Paul’s ministry.

I didn't miss anything at all and they are not only grafted in by Paul's ministry but by the message of the gospel itself whenever they accept it and repent and believe it.

Furthermore, the point remains the same, that there is now in Christ one single Israel and it consists of both Jew and Gentile together and the other ethnic only Israel of the flesh will remain so until the end of the age when it is done away with along with the rest of those in the nations who reject the gospel message.

Paul even reveals this as the case in Galatians 4 below.


Galatians 4

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”[e]
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.




It couldn't have been made any clearer either.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Please elaborate how God reveals his truth to you without using your human faculty of reason. Are you claiming that you understand more by thinking less?

My human faculty just like yours, was not given unto me to figure out the truth with but rather to be able to comprehend it when God does that for me and if you use it wrongly and try to figure it out instead of asking and seeking and waiting and trusting for God to give it unto you, you are going to get it wrong.

So that should explain to you how I do it, for I ask and I seek and I trust and wait on God for his timing to reveal it until me and I practice on keeping my own thinking and the thinking of other men out of God's way, so I can hear only him when he does reveal it.

We shouldn't be struggling to figure it out and instead our struggle should be to resist trying to figure it out and instead seeking and waiting and trusting in God to give it to us when he is ready and feels the time is right for us to receive it according to our maturity leveal.

 

[docphin5]

My human faculty just like yours, was not given unto me to figure out the truth with but rather to be able to comprehend it when God does that for me and if you use it wrongly and try to figure it out instead of asking and seeking and waiting and trusting for God to give it unto you, you are going to get it wrong.

Do you even hear the nonsense that you spout?

According to you, you “figure out the truth” not by using your human faculty, but by comprehending what God does for you?

And we are supposed to trust you with the truths of God’s word?!

 

[docphin5]

I didn't miss anything at all and they are not only grafted in by Paul's ministry but by the message of the gospel itself whenever they accept it and repent and believe it.

Furthermore, the point remains the same, that there is now in Christ one single Israel and it consists of both Jew and Gentile together and the other ethnic only Israel of the flesh will remain so until the end of the age when it is done away with along with the rest of those in the nations who reject the gospel message.

Paul even reveals this as the case in Galatians 4 below.


Galatians 4

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”[e]
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.




It couldn't have been made any clearer either.

Nothing in Galatians 4 precludes the Jewish-Christians descended from Abraham from being born of heaven. Moreover, it does not change the fact that for the centuries before traditional Christianity started the demographics of Messianic Jews were most if not all Jewish descent from Abraham. Hence, “God’s people”, according to Paul.

has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. (Romans 11:1)​

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Nothing in Galatians 4 precludes the Jewish-Christians descended from Abraham from being born of heaven. Moreover, it does not change the fact that for the centuries before traditional Christianity started the demographics of Messianic Jews were most if not all Jewish descent from Abraham. Hence, “God’s people”, according to Paul.

I didn't say that all of them would be excluded, but the point was, that there is Israel and Jerusalem of the flesh and there is Israel and Jerusalem of the Spirit and those of the Spirit are and will remain a remnant compared to the others of the flesh and it will remain this way right up until the end when Jesus returns also.


There is absolutely nothig in the NT which would reveal that there will be a massive rivival of only one generation of the whole nation of Israel of the flesh in the final days of this age and Paul in Romans 9-11 wasn't even speaking of only the last days but rather every generation of the elect right up until the end.

has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. (Romans 11:1)​

Once again, you just don't want to accept what Paul said right after this, "God has not rejected his people who he foreknew" and which means he is speaking of those who God has predestined to be saved out of the whole nation and not the whole nation and I have proven this right from all that he says in those three chapters also.

You see, you are a perfect example of the question you had as to why more Gentiles were being saved than that of the Jew, because you like them unfortunately think that you understand what you don't and that is why you are resisting the truth that I have been showing you right from the scriptures just like they did and are doing also.

If you had no prior knowledge, you most likely would have received this by now, but you are resisting it because you think that what you have been taught and learned of beforehand is correct when it couldn't be further from the truth.


That is just how dangerous false teaching really is and what a pity.

 

[leonard03782]

You see, you are a perfect example of the question you had as to why more Gentiles were being saved than that of the Jew, because you like them unfortunately think that you understand what you don't and that is why you are resisting the truth that I have been showing you right from the scriptures just like they did and are doing also.

DUDE............!!! You need to take a very hard look in the mirror. The person you need to be concerned about is YOURSELF.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

DUDE............!!! You need to take a very hard look in the mirror. The person you need to be concerned about is YOURSELF.

Here is a question for you, Jesus in Matthew 7 told his disciples to beware of false prophets who come to them in sheeps clothing but inwardly they are ravening wolves, and that they will know them by the fruits?

So if the false prophets are wearing sheeps clothing or to put it more plainly, if they are hidding behind sheeps clothing, how will the true disciple of Jesus know them by their fruits like Jesus said they would?

Oh and here is another question, do you think that those who are not true disciples and do not belong to Christ will know the false prophets by their fruits also?

What are the fruits that Jesus is speaking of and what would you look for to see them in the false prophets?


It is amazing to me that within the 30 and better years that I attended a church that believes like you do on this subject, that I never heard any minister exsplain correctly what Jesus meant by this and I have heard many sermons on it also, but none of them even came close to what he was referring to as their fruit.

Yet the truth about it is really quite simple.

So it is no wonder why they are so blind about many other of their doctrines as well as eschatology and prophecy.

 

[Our Lord's God]

Here is a question for you, Jesus in Matthew 7 told his disciples to beware of false prophets who come to them in sheeps clothing but inwardly they are ravening wolves, and that they will know them by the fruits?

So if the false prophets are wearing sheeps clothing or to put it more plainly, if they are hidding behind sheeps clothing, how will the true disciple of Jesus know them by their fruits like Jesus said they would?

Because true disciples know what good fruit looks like.

Oh and here is another question, do you think that those who are not true disciples and do not belong to Christ will know the false prophets by their fruits also?

No, they do not and cannot.

What are the fruits that Jesus is speaking of and what would you look for to see them in the false prophets?

The works of God which He prepares for them to do.

It is amazing to me that within the 30 and better years that I attended a church that believes like you do on this subject, that I never heard any minister exsplain correctly what Jesus meant by this and I have heard many sermons on it also, but none of them even came close to what he was referring to as their fruit.

Yet the truth about it is really quite simple.

So it is no wonder why they are so blind about many other of their doctrines as well as eschatology and prophecy.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Because true disciples know what good fruit looks like.

Yes but how would they know if the false prophet is hidding behind works that look like those of a true sheep of Jesus?

No, they do not and cannot.

That is correct they wouldn't know, but why?

The works of God which He prepares for them to do.

That is not correct because once again, the sheeps clothing is referring to their outward works, so let me give you a hint here.


What is a real prophet, and what is he sent from God to do?

 

[Our Lord's God]

Yes but how would they know if the false prophet is hidding behind works that look like those of a true sheep of Jesus?


That is correct they wouldn't know, but why?


That is not correct because once again, the sheeps clothing is referring to their outward works, so let me give you a hint here.


What is a real prophet, and what is he sent from God to do?

Well you tell me O wise one.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Well you tell me O wise one.

He is sent to speak for God and therefore in order to know a false prophet by his fruit, you have to know the truth of God yourself and if you don't, you will not know a false prophet from one who is really from God either.

I sat in the mainstream churches for years and heard many sermons on this passage and not one of those supposed ministers understood what Jesus was saying in that passage, not even one of them.

 

[Our Lord's God]

He is sent to speak for God and therefore in order to know a false prophet by his fruit, you have to know the truth of God yourself

You seem to have missed the part where I said "a true disciple." True disciples do know the truth of God or they wouldn't be true disciples.

and if you don't, you will not know a false prophet from one who is really from God either.

False prophets know nothing about the works of God which He prepares for the children of God to do. Ephesians 2:10.

Fake Christians, pretenders, just do their own works rather than God's works. True disciples know the difference.

I sat in the mainstream churches for years and heard many sermons on this passage and not one of those supposed ministers understood what Jesus was saying in that passage, not even one of them.

They don't have an inkling of a clue concerning a lot of things.