How can there be a loving God?

[Judges13:18]

No you don’t. You have experiences of compromised brain functioning that you are trying to lay an experience over that isn’t compromised. That is the hypocrisy here.

Compromised brain activity? She had ZERO brain activity. You who demand actual, tangible, measurable evidence... You're the one without that. Not us.

 

[Judges13:18]

The debate offers the proof that it is indeed not a cold dead lifeless brain that produces these experiences. That’s the point of it.

Fine. That is the point. But where does the truth and accuracy of recall of events surrounding the event come from then?

 

[5wize]

Fine. That is the point. But where does the truth and accuracy of recall of events surrounding the event come from then?

It comes from the stages of the brain either shutting down or coming back. These brief moments of brain activity are packed with instant yet myriads of impressions, mental data dumps, that either seem like events over days even though you were out but a few moments or seem like only minutes when you were actually out for days. Yet these impressions will take up their own seamless timelines in a compromised mind not related to the actual time passing.

 

[5wize]

Compromised brain activity? She had ZERO brain activity. You who demand actual, tangible, measurable evidence... You're the one without that. Not us.

Not true. She may have had zero brain activity during the central portion of the timeline experience, but in that duration she would not register the passing of time at all. But at each end of the experience of a shutting down mind... and then a mind rising back to consciousness, there were mental impressions firing. If the center is timeless, the 2 ends of the experience will seem to come together as if that center portion didn’t happen at all... and to the patient’s mind... nothing is happening mentally during that time span, not even the passing of time.

 

[Temujin]

Just say that nothingness existed before anything else. I think it is safe to assume that we wouldn't be here now. It would still be nothingness.
Unless, of course, if you can show that something can come about from nothingness.

I disagree with Carrier. How can nothingness be unstable? There is nothing to give it instability or stability.

Stability is a property which nothingness doesn't have. Instability is the absence of stability, therefore nothingness is unstable.

 

[5wize]

The soul does not sleep. The capacity to be aware of your own soul ceases when you sleep. Sometimes it doesn't. The experience varies one experience to another. And varies one person from another. There is nothing to suggest that soul awareness has to be constant and unvarying for it to be real.

So you have nothing more than a random set of disparate anecdotal brain experiences - and lacks of experience - and from that you are attempting to claim some solid conclusion. Why would you proceed like that with that data on the table?

Besides, it really sounds like you just made all that stuff up.

 

[5wize]

The way into fellowship with God in the Holy of Holies has been opened for all the people of God through Christ in this New Covenant. Matthew 27:50-51, Hebrews 10:19-20



In the New Covenant God does talk directly to his people without them having to be dependent on men to discern truth. 1 John 2:20-21,27

That’s a different issue from what Howie was mentioning. But there are so many problems with that as well.

 

[5wize]

What is it about a brain that has no pulse, no blood even, and no brain activity, and cooled well below normal temperature that it can somehow be claimed to be alive? You who love hard and fast evidence, what scientific measure, what evidence do you have that shows that this person was still alive?

The brain shutting down and coming back produces the impressions.

 

[Judges13:18]

It comes from the stages of the brain either shutting down or coming back. These brief moments of brain activity are packed with instant yet myriads of impressions, mental data dumps, that either seem like events over days even though you were out but a few moments or seem like only minutes when you were actually out for days. Yet these impressions will take up their own seamless timelines in a compromised mind not related to the actual time passing.

How did the brain get all the factual information contained in these "impressions" and "mental data dumps" that came from the period of time the brain was, by all provable scientific and measurable indices, not functioning?

 

[Judges13:18]

That’s a different issue from what Howie was mentioning. But there are so many problems with that as well.

Fill me in on the problems with that.

 

[Whatsisface]

How did the brain get all the factual information contained in these "impressions" and "mental data dumps" that came from the period of time the brain was, by all provable scientific and measurable indices, not functioning?

Anaesthesia awareness is a known phenomenon.

Awareness under anesthesia, also referred to as intraoperative awareness or accidental awareness during general anesthesia (AAGA), is a rare complication of general anesthesia where patients regain varying levels of consciousness during their surgical procedures. While anesthesia awareness is possible without resulting in any long-term memory of the experience, it is also possible for victims to have awareness with explicit recall, where they can remember the events related to their surgery (intraoperative awareness with explicit recall).[1]

Found here.

 

[Judges13:18]

The brain shutting down and coming back produces the impressions.

And so my question to you is...

How did the brain get all the factual information contained in these "impressions" and "mental data dumps" that came from the period of time the brain was, by all provable scientific and measurable indices, not functioning?

Not true. She may have had zero brain activity during the central portion of the timeline experience, but in that duration she would not register the passing of time at all. But at each end of the experience of a shutting down mind... and then a mind rising back to consciousness, there were mental impressions firing. If the center is timeless, the 2 ends of the experience will seem to come together as if that center portion didn’t happen at all... and to the patient’s mind... nothing is happening mentally during that time span, not even the passing of time.

Wow, the brain of an unconcious person that can see and record things as it's springing back to life. Interesting.

 

[Judges13:18]

Anaesthesia awareness is a known phenomenon.

Are you saying people can have the awareness of seeing through closed eyelids, and remember it while under anaesthesia?

 

[5wize]

How did the brain get all the factual information contained in these "impressions" and "mental data dumps" that came from the period of time the brain was, by all provable scientific and measurable indices, not functioning?

The amount of time during which Reynolds was "flatlined" is generally misrepresented and suggest that her NDE occurred under general anesthesia when the brain was still active, hours before Reynolds underwent hypothermic cardiac arrest. It was a 7 hour operation. Did Pam report 7 hours of conversation and awareness?

 

[Judges13:18]

Besides, it really sounds like you just made all that stuff up.

You're human, right? Have you never had the experience of sometimes having soul awareness and sometimes not when you sleep? I'm hardly making this up.

It's a varying experience, but according to you because it does vary, episode to episode, and person to person we have to discard it as being real. Though we both know the conciousness of soul experienced during sleep, when it is experienced is real.

 

[5wize]

You're human, right? Have you never had the experience of sometimes having soul awareness and sometimes not when you sleep? I'm hardly making this up.

I don’t even know what “soul awareness” means. I dream. Sometimes vividly where my wife has to wake me because I think its real and sometimes only impressionistically - vaguely. What is “soul awareness”?

 

[5wize]

You're human, right? Have you never had the experience of sometimes having soul awareness and sometimes not when you sleep? I'm hardly making this up.

It's a varying experience, but according to you because it does vary, episode to episode, and person to person we have to discard it as being real. Though we both know the conciousness of soul experienced during sleep, when it is experienced is real.

No. You have to discard it as non conclusive to your supernatural ends. Remember, you are trying to convince us of something ubiquitous and common in EVERYBODY (a soul) by telling us of very rare anecdotes.

 

[Judges13:18]

The amount of time during which Reynolds was "flatlined" is generally misrepresented and suggest that her NDE occurred under general anesthesia when the brain was still active, hours before Reynolds underwent hypothermic cardiac arrest. It was a 7 hour operation. Did Pam report 7 hours of conversation and awareness?

Show me a video or transcript explaing the details of how the testimony was misrepresented.

 

[Judges13:18]

No. You have to discard it as non conclusive to your supernatural ends.

I did not say it was supernatural. I was using your argument for consistency of experience to prove the validity of experience in regard to the brain during sleep, which you can relate to, to show the fallacy of your argument.

 

[Gus Bovona]

Just say that nothingness existed before anything else.

I'm not claiming that. I guess it's a hypothetical possibility, but I don't know if it is a real, empirical, actual possibility.

I think it is safe to assume that we wouldn't be here now. It would still be nothingness.

Did you read my comment about what Carrier said? What he says contradicts your assumption. I don't know who is right, but at least Carrier has a coherent alternative position.

Unless, of course, if you can show that something can come about from nothingness.

Carrier hypothesized a way for that to happen, as I noted in my previous post.

I disagree with Carrier. How can nothingness be unstable? There is nothing to give it instability or stability.

The thing that gives it instability is something that doesn't exist (it would necessarily not exist, because we're talking about nothingness): it's the absence of any law or principle that says something can't come from nothing.