Choice

Dizerner said:
No, I think that is the sin of being "self-righteous," which I define as a "righteousness according to the Law" or put in another way, "trusting in yourself that you are righteous."

...and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law. Phil. 3:9
...He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous. Luk. 18:9

I believe good works are rewarded on the basis of non-meritorious works, rather than meritorious works.

I define these as expressions of trust in God to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves, or in another way of speaking, we are rewarded for how much we let God do through us, that is, how much we allow grace to work in us. My very, very, very (add as much very's as you can), very best work I ever accomplished in my own merit, my own goodness, and my own power, is sinful and deserves hell. It was not done out of pure love for God but somewhere to glorify myself.

That's my take on the whole grace/works thing.
Click to expand...
I cannot exactly follow this but it seems spiritualized. It is simpler to me, God says He will reward good works. Yes, we need Christ in order to do them, but that does not change that we do them.
 
Ladodgers6 said:
Thanks for finally addressing Romans 4, though it was like pulling teeth. And this is exactly why I disagree with you guys. Paul is not speaking of a reward, but a Free Gift, Christ, Justification, Sanctification and Redemption (1 Cor. !:30). Rewards are given to those who are already saved. Paul is speaking about how God justifies the UNGODLY through Faith Alone!

Your end of the Lesson!
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply. It took you some time! So it looks like I gave you something to think about, which is a good sign. But I haven’t finished yet! I have got more good stuff for you to think about. Consider now the following verses, mostly by Paul himself:

Romans 2:

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Galatians 6:

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Acts 10:

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation [and religion] he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Edit per mod
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sethproton said:
I cannot exactly follow this but it seems spiritualized. It is simpler to me, God says He will reward good works. Yes, we need Christ in order to do them, but that does not change that we do them.
Click to expand...
And there you prove that you believe your righteousness is pleasing to God, and that you cannot discern scripture in the Spiritual.
 
Manfred said:
Christ died for all, but not for all.

He effectively died only for those to whom He grants belief. Those to whom Jesus chooses to reveal the Father too.
Christ did not die for the tares planted by the enemy. Those that will be cast into the fire.
Everyone who hears the gospel is not saved. Not everyone who hears the gospel has faith. The gospel is not revealed to everyone who hears it, otherwise all would believe.
Click to expand...
No

Christ died for all in provisional atonement which requires acceptance through faith before its benefits are applied

faith is granted through the proclamation of the word

Romans 10:14-17 (KJV)
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Having faith requires an act of the will. One must entrust oneself to that which he believes is true
 
TomFL said:
No

Christ died for all in provisional atonement which requires acceptance through faith before its benefits are applied

faith is granted through the proclamation of the word

Romans 10:14-17 (KJV)
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Having faith requires an act of the will. One must entrust oneself to that which he believes is true
Click to expand...
I said
He effectively died only for those to whom He grants belief. Those to whom Jesus chooses to reveal the Father too.
Christ did not die for the tares planted by the enemy. Those that will be cast into the fire.
Everyone who hears the gospel is not saved. Not everyone who hears the gospel has faith. The gospel is not revealed to everyone who hears it, otherwise all would believe.

Tom says no, He did not die effectively for those to whom He grants belief. Therefore the atonement is useless.

Tom Says no Jesus does not choose to whom He will reveal the Father to, yet scripture is explicit that Jesus does. (27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.)

Tom says No, Jesus did die for the tares who are planted by the enemy even though they will burn in the fire.

Tom says, NO everyone who hears the gospel is saved.

Tom Says, NO everyone who hears the gospel has faith.

Tom says, NO full revelation is given to everyone who hears the gospel, and even though they receive full revelation they are not saved.

Tom is one confused individual
 
Manfred said:
I said
He effectively died only for those to whom He grants belief. Those to whom Jesus chooses to reveal the Father too.
Christ did not die for the tares planted by the enemy. Those that will be cast into the fire.
Everyone who hears the gospel is not saved. Not everyone who hears the gospel has faith. The gospel is not revealed to everyone who hears it, otherwise all would believe.

Tom says no, He did not die effectively for those to whom He grants belief. Therefore the atonement is useless.

Tom Says no Jesus does not choose to whom He will reveal the Father to, yet scripture is explicit that Jesus does. (27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.)

Tom says No, Jesus did die for the tares who are planted by the enemy even though they will burn in the fire.

Tom says, NO everyone who hears the gospel is saved.

Tom Says, NO everyone who hears the gospel has faith.

Tom says, NO full revelation is given to everyone who hears the gospel, and even though they receive full revelation they are not saved.

Tom is one confused individual
Click to expand...
I don’t know about Tom, but these verses seem to me to say it all:

1 Timothy 2:

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
 
zerinus said:
I don’t know about Tom, but these verses seem to me to say it all:

1 Timothy 2:

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Click to expand...
So you believe all men are saved right?
Universalist Mormon
 

Quote box removed.
CARM Discussion Rules section 14, 1 Banned Subjects: Universalism and Satanism.

I believe what you mean Mormon is that you simply hate being told that you hold to a Universalist belief predicated as it is on the blasphemous doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints of which you are a member. I understand that of course Mormon. As to how I learned to talk such nonsense - I learned it in an instant on May 10th 1984 when I knew the Father and asked of Christ and received the power of the Holy Spirit by grace and in all ways entirely undeservedly.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
zerinus said:
Quote box removed
Click to expand...

Ah bless you Mormon. I am so sorry that your day isn't going as well as would be preferred (it seems). God willing it may go better if your persevere. God Bless you dear Mormon friend.

As to the substance of your comment - could I suggest somewhat nervously that you email Matt Slick and suggest the idea to him. Don't forget to try and resist using terms that will necessary cause offence. He is after all upholding the forum. So for example try to avoid the urban initialism Edit per mod because its unlikely to be taken as a short hand reference to a Bachelor of Science which is clearly the way you intend to myself. Shalom Mormon.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Manfred said:
And there you prove that you believe your righteousness is pleasing to God, and that you cannot discern scripture in the Spiritual.
Click to expand...
no. Not my righteousness. never. Only His righteousness imputed to me.
But do I think God is pleased when I do the right thing? Yes.
 
Manfred said:
I said
He effectively died only for those to whom He grants belief. Those to whom Jesus chooses to reveal the Father too.
Christ did not die for the tares planted by the enemy. Those that will be cast into the fire.
Everyone who hears the gospel is not saved. Not everyone who hears the gospel has faith. The gospel is not revealed to everyone who hears it, otherwise all would believe.

Tom says no, He did not die effectively for those to whom He grants belief. Therefore the atonement is useless.

Tom Says no Jesus does not choose to whom He will reveal the Father to, yet scripture is explicit that Jesus does. (27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.)

Tom says No, Jesus did die for the tares who are planted by the enemy even though they will burn in the fire.

Tom says, NO everyone who hears the gospel is saved.

Tom Says, NO everyone who hears the gospel has faith.

Tom says, NO full revelation is given to everyone who hears the gospel, and even though they receive full revelation they are not saved.

Tom is one confused individual
Click to expand...
Tom does not appear confused. He does not believe as you do. You have to read for understanding. There is not just two positions, yours and the one you think is wrong.
 
Manfred said:
I said
He effectively died only for those to whom He grants belief. Those to whom Jesus chooses to reveal the Father too.
Christ did not die for the tares planted by the enemy. Those that will be cast into the fire.
Everyone who hears the gospel is not saved. Not everyone who hears the gospel has faith. The gospel is not revealed to everyone who hears it, otherwise all would believe.

Tom says no, He did not die effectively for those to whom He grants belief. Therefore the atonement is useless.

Tom Says no Jesus does not choose to whom He will reveal the Father to, yet scripture is explicit that Jesus does. (27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.)

Tom says No, Jesus did die for the tares who are planted by the enemy even though they will burn in the fire.

Tom says, NO everyone who hears the gospel is saved.

Tom Says, NO everyone who hears the gospel has faith.

Tom says, NO full revelation is given to everyone who hears the gospel, and even though they receive full revelation they are not saved.

Tom is one confused individual
Click to expand...

Except you do not speak for Tom and get to misreport what Tom states

Tom notes the gospel is sent to all

Mark 16:15 (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Tom notes scripture states Christ died for all all


Christ died short list

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Exported from Logos Bible Software, 9:47 AM March 15, 2021.

Mod reply:

1. You must provide a citation, not just what you think is representative.

2. Which Logos software package?

3. Permission to post material from their site.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
zerinus said:
Thanks for the reply. It took you some time! So it looks like I gave you something to think about, which is a good sign. But I haven’t finished yet! I have got more good stuff for you to think about. Consider now the following verses, mostly by Paul himself:

Romans 2:

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Galatians 6:

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Acts 10:

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation [and religion] he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

According to these verses, you don’t even need to be a Christian to be saved. All you need to do is to act righteously before God, and do what is good and right in the sight of God, and you will be saved. A pagan who acts righteously before God out of a good conscience will be saved; whereas a Christian who does evil will be condemned. That is what Paul is saying in those verses. In other words, salvation is a reward for acting righteously before God, regardless of whether you are a Jew or Gentile; Christian, pagan, or Muslim; and damnation is a punishment for doing evil, regardless of whether you are a Jew or Gentile; Christian, pagan, or Muslim. That is what Paul and Peter are saying in those verses. How do you reconcile that with the other passages of Paul, such as in Romans 4, which appear to say something different? Which do you think is the best strategy, to build your theology on isolated passages of scripture, which is going to give you a distorted or incomplete picture of what the correct biblical doctrine should be; or to build your theology on everything that is taught in the Bible, which will give you a more complete picture?
Click to expand...
No Sir, your paradigm is no novelty to these debates. You are not familiar with these topics nor understand them. My suggestion is to do some research and homework before you engage in these debates.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top