Should we work to get rid of Christianity?

No in an ultimate sense they are not contingent because they are part of the eternal creator. But they were contingent in this universe. Natural selection doesnt select for truth recognition so it could not have selected for logical reasoning. Natural selection only selects for survivability. So while there is some overlap between survival and logic, being able to logically reason is not necessary for survival as seen in all the organisms that have done even better than humans without being able to reason logically.
The laws of logic cannot be contingent and still be laws of logic. And NS selects for truth recognition because it has obvious adaptive value. Humans have evolved into the ecological niche of general reasoning and tool use, where logical skills are adaptive. And evolution explains why we fail in certain areas of logic.
I didnt say they were contingent in an ultimate sense. It is not that obvious given that the most successful organisms at surviving cannot reason at all. Knowing that 2 plus 2 equals 4 does not increase survivability and neither does knowing that evolutionary theory is true. If natural selection is actually the mechanism for evolution then life would have never advanced beyond cockroaches or maybe rats and cats. So saying that because humans exist means natural selection can select for truth recognition, is assuming what we are trying to prove.
El Cid said:
Event and effect are basically the same thing.
They are critically different in the present context in that only one of them entails a cause. Pointing out that the beginning of the universe was an event gets you nowhere closer to showing that it was caused, and an uncaused event does not conflict with the LNC.
No, a cause is not a characteristic of an effect. An effect and its characteristics stand alone, we just need to determine what made the effect have certain characteristics.
El Cid said:
Straw man. I didnt just say X caused Y. I said Y is an effect that has certain characteristics and X has characteristics of the most likely cause of the characteristics of Y therefore, X is most likely the cause of Y. Again Scientists do this everyday.
Not a strawman, as I was describing a point we both agree upon. And IBE claims of a "most likely cause" need to be demonstrated rather than merely claimed. And as I pointed out, merely having an explanation is not always better than having something be unexplained.
If the explanation is rational and has the most explanatory power then it is most likely THE explanation.
El Cid said:
I am not engaging in an inductive inference but rather a deductive and abductive inference. Effect and event are basically the same thing.
Effects and events are not the same thing, and you will need to demonstrate that your inference qualifies as either deductive or adbuctive. It's certainly not going to be both.
It is primarily abductive.
 
I didnt say they were contingent in an ultimate sense. It is not that obvious given that the most successful organisms at surviving cannot reason at all. Knowing that 2 plus 2 equals 4 does not increase survivability and neither does knowing that evolutionary theory is true. If natural selection is actually the mechanism for evolution then life would have never advanced beyond cockroaches or maybe rats and cats. So saying that because humans exist means natural selection can select for truth recognition, is assuming what we are trying to prove.
What is adaptive depends upon the environment and ecological niche in which a species finds itself. Humans have evolved into the ecological niche of general intelligence, where truth recognition and logical reasoning is indirectly selected for on account of its contribution to fitness.

No, a cause is not a characteristic of an effect. An effect and its characteristics stand alone, we just need to determine what made the effect have certain characteristics.
Having a cause is the defining characteristic of an effect, distinguishing it from a mere event.

If the explanation is rational and has the most explanatory power then it is most likely THE explanation.
Yes, by definition. But there are many criteria and factors that go into abductively determining which explanation is best. For more detail, see the thread I started in the Evo/Creo forum.

It is primarily abductive.
So prove it. Show us the abductive inference, specifying the criteria by which this inference is justified. Whenever I've pressed you on this you end up making an inductive argument instead.
 
No, some species are better at survival than others,
And how is this determined?
When the worse ones go extinct.

A species of one hundred cannot be said to be "better at surviving" than a species of one hundred million because we don't know what's going to happen in the future - what if conditions change - suddenly or gradually - to disfavour the larger species?
 
I dont isolate the solution to the hiddeness of God. God is not hidden. It is quite obvious when analyzed carefully, there is strong evidence He exists.

Yes.
No. He is hidden to us. Where is the God who walked with us in the garden and spoke with us conversationally? The one that wrestled with Jacob? he one that spoke directly to Noah and showed him what to do and why in no uncertain terms? Who spoke in the burning bush and personally handed the law to man? Who held the hand of Abraham from Isaac? Who showed the Pharaoh and Ahab in contest who had the better god?

That God, the Christian God, is most certainly hidden from this era. No one needed to analyze anything carefully when He was gaining His canonical definition. The God of the canon no longer exists, if he ever did at all. It takes so little analysis to figure that out. But I agree that it does take much careful analysis to apologize for the absence and somehow make it work for continued belief against those odds.
 
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Having a beginning is one of the characteristics of contingency.
We don't know enough to be able to say the universe is contingent, and space and time are turning out to be rather strange and counterintuitive to us, and you're claiming this based on a general principle within the universe that doesn't necessarily apply to the universe as a whole.

We just don't know enough.
 
I didnt say they were contingent in an ultimate sense. It is not that obvious given that the most successful organisms at surviving cannot reason at all. Knowing that 2 plus 2 equals 4 does not increase survivability and neither does knowing that evolutionary theory is true. If natural selection is actually the mechanism for evolution then life would have never advanced beyond cockroaches or maybe rats and cats. So saying that because humans exist means natural selection can select for truth recognition, is assuming what we are trying to prove.
But having the ability to reason which enables us to recognise this, does.
 
Since nobody can ever know what God's moral character is, that is not true. The world's Christians repeatedly argue about what God thinks is and isn't moral; nobody can ever be sure. Which makes Christians' moral opinions as subjective as anybody else's.
No, among Christians that accept the infallible authority of Gods Word, there is agreement on the essential moral teachings of God and his word.
No, it's not. Selfishness is about motivation, not behaviour.
But since we cant read minds and know motivation, we determine selfishness by behavior. You know it when you see it.
Again, you cannot show that they lean toward the bad and have to be reminded of the good. You've also not made the case that whatever selfishness children show is 'sin'.
I notice you didnt or were unable to answer my question. Why? Because you know it proves my point? God has told us it is sin plus our moral conscious does as well ie, most people agree that acting selfish is wrong.
So the bible contradicts itself? I'm not surprised.
No, taking things out of context can make any book contradictory.
No, love is precisely an emotion. All flavours of it.
So if someone in your family needs help and its a day you dont feel like it, you dont help them?
I have; it's nonsense, since nobody can ever know what you claim to be the creators' moral laws.
Yes, you can, the essential moral laws of God are obvious in His Word. All you have to know is how to read things in context like any other book.
Umm...no. That's proven by the fact that people feel guilt over any number of things, including those that nobody feels are sinful. Guilt is just another emotion, irrational or not.
No, most everything in the second tablet of the Ten Commandments people feel guilty about if they commit the act. Such as most people feel guilty if they murder, lie, commit adultery, or steal. This is evidence that our moral conscience is a reflection of the moral law of God.
No, you haven't remotely shown that in any posts.
Provide one post where I have not.
No, your particular interpretation of a thousands-of-years-old book by unknown authors claims that.
No, millions of people for 2000 years have agreed with my interpretation, and many of the authors are known and there is evidence that the book has a divine origin.
Again you are just begging the question. You are assuming that the universe was caused (because it is an effect, and by definition effects have causes) and since it was caused, it had a cause - God. You have not shown it was an effect; you have not shown any way in which it would be different if it was an uncaused event, nor that it was not an uncauseed event.
No, scientists have to study the effect and the event to determine which is which. Good scientists cannot just assume something has a cause, it has to show characteristics that demonstrate whether it is an effect or an event. And the universe has all the characteristics of an effect. Just because you claim you cannot tell the difference does not mean others cannot.
Sorry, but "most cosmologists believe it did" does not equate to "we know it did". The fact is that we do not know whether or not the universe had a beginning; we don't even know if it had a beginning in its present form.
I never claimed that we know for certain it had a beginning, just that so far all the evidence points that way and the evidence grows every year that it did have a beginning.
Why are they characteristics of something that is contingent? Show that a non-contingent something would not have those characteristics.
A non contingent thing would not have a beginning and would not change.
Again, you are just claiming that your god's diversity is somehow different to any other god's diversity and that that diversity somehow proves that he created the universe. You've not demostrated either of those.
It is different, and you have failed to prove otherwise. I have demonstrated it.
 
But since we cant read minds and know motivation, we determine selfishness by behavior. You know it when you see it.
Then you agree that selfishness is not a behaviour, but informs - and can be decuded from - behaviour.
No, most everything in the second tablet of the Ten Commandments people feel guilty about if they commit the act. Such as most people feel guilty if they murder, lie, commit adultery, or steal. This is evidence that our moral conscience is a reflection of the moral law of God.
Why not the other way around?
The Bible writers came up with a list of actions that make people feel guilty, and just gave Yahweh the credit for putting the guilt in us...
 
The laws of physics make the universe intelligible and intelligibility can only be created by an intelligent designer.
Do you have any evidence for that claim?
Basically It is true by definition, intelligibility, is the characteristic of something that is made to be able to be comprehended by a mind, Only minds can make something that is comprehensible by other minds.
 
el cid: Possibly.

You really need to support this if you can, because a married bachelor is an impossibility.
I say possibly because if there is no God then logic and language would probably not exist. But if it did, then yes it would be an impossibility.
El Cid said:
Yes, the syllogisms have to be valid.
Do you understand my point? A married bachelor is impossible because of the definition of the words married and bachelor. That's all that's needed for this to be true, the definition of the words. No God is needed here.
No, you still need the relationship between the two words which is logic, and if you need logic, then you need God as the origin of logic.
El Cid said:
I think it would. Our universe is intelligible because of the laws of physics, intelligibility can only come from an intelligent mind.
This needs support, just saying it isn't enough.
See my post to Electric Skeptic above.
 
In what way(s) is America "the best nation"? What criteria are you using to make that judgement?
America has the most freedom, most upward economic mobility, best medical care, best universities, and etc. though we are starting to lose some of these things.
 
I say possibly because if there is no God then logic and language would probably not exist.
This needs support. You've so far made the claim, but that's not enough to establish what you're saying as true.
No, you still need the relationship between the two words which is logic, and if you need logic, then you need God as the origin of logic.
You haven't said why.
See my post to Electric Skeptic above.
You said..."Basically It is true by definition, intelligibility, is the characteristic of something that is made to be able to be comprehended by a mind, Only minds can make something that is comprehensible by other minds."

This needs support too, so far it's just a claim.
 
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Fraid so, read Aristotle: Selections. Edited by W.D. Ross. He had six causes, some may be derivatives of the other four. 1. Material Cause, 2. Formal Cause, 3. Final Cause, 4. Instrumental Cause, 5. Efficient Cause, and 6. Sufficient Cause.
Well, I don't have that text so I don't know what you are referring to. All sources I'm aware of, including the one I linked you to, refer to Aristotle's 4 causes. If you have this book can you please quote some relevant passages where Aristotle discusses what you are calling 'sufficient cause'? I do have other primary texts from Aristotle, so if you could tell me which selections W.D. Ross is using that would be great.

Here is what I get from Aristotle's Metaphysics (W.D. Ross' translation). Note that the term "sufficient cause" appears nowhere in the entire work:
"Evidently we have to acquire knowledge of the original causes (for we say we know each thing only when we think we recognize its first cause), and causes are spoken of in four senses. In one of these we mean the substance, i.e. the essence (for the 'why' is reducible finally to the definition, and the ultimate 'why' is a cause and principle); in another the matter or substratum, in a third the source of the change, and in a fourth the cause opposed to this, the purpose and the good (for this is the end of all generation and change)."
I dont have the book either but a table was taken out of it for another book that I do have and the table lists those six causes. I will give you the definitions from the table. 1. Material cause - That out of which something is made. 2. Formal cause - The design or idea followed in the process of making something. 3. Final cause - The purpose for which something is made. 4. Instrumental cause - The means or instrument by which something is made. 5. Efficient cause - The chief agent cause something to be made. 6. Sufficient cause - A cause equal to the task of causing the thing to be made.
El Cid said:
Sounds like genetic fallacy to me.
I don't see how. I'm happy to grant that the universe is logically contingent, but I don't see how that gets you any closer to a cause or anything supernatural.
Evolutionary naturalists claim that science must understand nature in terms of nature. This is the problem Godels Theorem has shown is causes errors. Trying to prove a system using only the system itself causes paradoxes and contradictions. That is why when resolving the problems of explaining nature, you must go outside nature, ie supernatural.
 
I dont have the book either but a table was taken out of it for another book that I do have and the table lists those six causes. I will give you the definitions from the table. 1. Material cause - That out of which something is made. 2. Formal cause - The design or idea followed in the process of making something. 3. Final cause - The purpose for which something is made. 4. Instrumental cause - The means or instrument by which something is made. 5. Efficient cause - The chief agent cause something to be made. 6. Sufficient cause - A cause equal to the task of causing the thing to be made.
Sorry, but no. Without an actual quote from Aristotle, as I gave to you, I'm going to have to call BS on the claim that 'sufficient cause' is some kind of law of logic for Aristotle. That is not the case. Obviously a cause can be sufficient to bring about its effect, but that doesn't mean there is any such thing as a law of sufficient cause by which everything must be caused.

Evolutionary naturalists claim that science must understand nature in terms of nature. This is the problem Godels Theorem has shown is causes errors. Trying to prove a system using only the system itself causes paradoxes and contradictions. That is why when resolving the problems of explaining nature, you must go outside nature, ie supernatural.
Again, Godel's theorems show no flaw in naturalism. All they do is show the limits of provability in formal axiomatic systems.
 
See post no. 898.
You mean
America has the most freedom, most upward economic mobility, best medical care, best universities, and etc. though we are starting to lose some of these things.
?

OK:

1. Why do these criteria you have arbitrarily chosen render the USA the best nation? If I pick carefully, I can render it the worst nation.

2. On what do you base the claim "most freedom"? What statistical metric are you using to compare levels of freedom?

3. "Most upward economic mobility" is simply false - see https://reports.weforum.org/social-...ing_wp_cron=1634452266.5776970386505126953125

4. How is medical care being compared? Remember that the US does not have socialized medicine - "great medical care" is only great if somebody has access to it...

5. "Best universities", you can have - many of the top ten of 2020 are in the US.?

6. "etc"?
 
So some people think it would be better if Christianity were gotten rid of. Is there anyone here who thinks so.
If so, how? Presumably most atheists here think the best way is through argumentation, persuasion and the demonstration that religion is not necessary for personal and social health and well being. Is there anyone who disagrees with that?

What is the nature of the evidence to support the desireability of the elimination of Christianity?

(Note: I do not think eliminating Christianity is a good thing myself. I rather admire some aspects of it, although I can also point to what I think are examples of destructive effects, both in individuals and socially).

I'm going to be watching this thread because its potential to be highly divisive.

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Actually " Christianity "comes from the Latin form of that name.. ie; esp; the RCC.. The Messiah is Jewish and His Name is " Yeshua " which mean, " He saves " in reference to His People.. He is a Hebrew/Jewish He taught Hebrew Laws etc; ..
 
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