John the Baptist was not Elijah

Sounds like we may agree so far .
Trinity is a man made doctrine that falls apart with scriptures.
GOD wants to walk with man , not be man .
Yes and man walk with God, have His same mind, Spirit, walk in it as He walks in it, perfect holy pure and without sin, He in you and you in Him as one as Jesus was one in Him. John 17.

Trinity doctrine is devised by religious minds to keep people separated from having from God the same as Jesus had from Him. It is only an excuse for their iniquity of not following the way of Jesus to the Father. A made up god they can control by their laws to regulate a belief about a god of their making. These are of a creed instead of God.
 
Greetings again Jim harmon,
Very nice wording but you’re reading into scripture. Was John lying when he denied being that prophet ? explain please .
John 1:19-23 (KJV): 19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
I decided to quote the whole passage and John denies that he is the Christ and "that prophet", but he affirms that he is the voice of one crying in the wilderness as prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 40. The particular "that prophet" is the prophet that was going to be greater than Moses and who was going to be like unto Moses and God. I understand that this role was fulfilled by Jesus:
Deuteronomy 18:15,18 (KJV): 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Only one way it works . Jesus was Elijah. Paving the way for David spoken of in Jeremiah and Ezekiel.
I find this explanation rather unusual. You seem to be suggesting that Jesus is inferior to David. Psalm 110:1 clearly states that Jesus is David's Lord. Jesus is the "Beloved One" Isaiah 42:1, Matthew :16-17.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Jim harmon,

John 1:19-23 (KJV): 19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
I decided to quote the whole passage and John denies that he is the Christ and "that prophet", but he affirms that he is the voice of one crying in the wilderness as prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 40. The particular "that prophet" is the prophet that was going to be greater than Moses and who was going to be like unto Moses and God. I understand that this role was fulfilled by Jesus:
Deuteronomy 18:15,18 (KJV): 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

I find this explanation rather unusual. You seem to be suggesting that Jesus is inferior to David. Psalm 110:1 clearly states that Jesus is David's Lord. Jesus is the "Beloved One" Isaiah 42:1, Matthew :16-17.

Kind regards
Trevor
Where in psalm 110.1 does it say the name Jesus ?
You again reading Jesus into it when it is speaking of One like unto David .
There is no way one could compare Jesus to David .

John 1:21
And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
How more clear can it be ?
 
Greetings again Jim harmon,
Where in psalm 110.1 does it say the name Jesus ? You again reading Jesus into it when it is speaking of One like unto David . There is no way one could compare Jesus to David .
Matthew 22:41–46 (KJV): 41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Here are two expositions of Psalm 110:1. There are many more in between. Do you need me to quote these?

John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
How more clear can it be ?
Yes, very clear. John the Baptist was not the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:15,18. He was the prophet of Isaiah 40:3-8.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Jim harmon,

Matthew 22:41–46 (KJV): 41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Here are two expositions of Psalm 110:1. There are many more in between. Do you need me to quote these?


Yes, very clear. John the Baptist was not the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:15,18. He was the prophet of Isaiah 40:3-8.

Kind regards
Trevor
Ecclesiastes 7:13 (KJV)
Consider the work of God: for who can make [that] straight, which he hath made crooked?
Believe as you are lead .
How you can see John in Isaiah 40 is beyond me .
First it is not speaking of a person but people .
Next John would not fit verses 4 and 5 .
My post stands as is .
You see what you see .
 
Ecclesiastes 7:13 (KJV)
Consider the work of God: for who can make [that] straight, which he hath made crooked?
Believe as you are lead .
How you can see John in Isaiah 40 is beyond me .
First it is not speaking of a person but people .
Next John would not fit verses 4 and 5 .
My post stands as is .
You see what you see .
You seem to be rather blinkered. The work of God is to believe in God, and lead others to believe in God.

In this aspect John was very great, and second only to Jesus, even if he isn't recorded as doing any miracles.

Mat 3:5 "Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan,"
Mat 3:6 "and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins."

Isaiah 40 is all about the repentance of Israel after suffering, and fits well with the condition of Israel at the time of John the Baptist.
 
Greetings again Jim harmon,
How you can see John in Isaiah 40 is beyond me . First it is not speaking of a person but people . Next John would not fit verses 4 and 5 .
Luke 3:3-6 clearly states that John the Baptist fulfils this role and he also claims this in John 1:22-23. A careful consideration of the various types of people suggested by the language of Isaiah 40:4 compared to the examples of people who asked John what they needed to do in Luke 3:10-14 shows that John the Baptist fulfilled this role.
I don’t remember any of that in the Bible ?
Maybe as you say, these verses are not in your Bible.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
You seem to be rather blinkered. The work of God is to believe in God, and lead others to believe in God.

In this aspect John was very great, and second only to Jesus, even if he isn't recorded as doing any miracles.

Mat 3:5 "Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan,"
Mat 3:6 "and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins."

Isaiah 40 is all about the repentance of Israel after suffering, and fits well with the condition of Israel at the time of John the Baptist.
Luke 9:5 (KJV)
And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
And no .
Instead they bring into the discussion
what they believe, not scripture.
Damnable heresies .
2 Peter 2:1 (KJV)
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Like Isaiah 40 , nothing to do with John the person .
Twisting to fit a doctrine.
 
Luke 9:5 (KJV)
And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
And no .
Instead they bring into the discussion
what they believe, not scripture.
Damnable heresies .
2 Peter 2:1 (KJV)
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Like Isaiah 40 , nothing to do with John the person .
Twisting to fit a doctrine.
Both the verses above (i.e. excepting Isaiah) relate to the Christian era, which came after John the Baptist. Also, the false teachers in the main arose from Greek speakers, not Jews.

You're the one twisting a doctrine to fit a message as it never says everyone harkened to John's message.
 
Greetings again Jim harmon,

Luke 3:3-6 clearly states that John the Baptist fulfils this role and he also claims this in John 1:22-23. A careful consideration of the various types of people suggested by the language of Isaiah 40:4 compared to the examples of people who asked John what they needed to do in Luke 3:10-14 shows that John the Baptist fulfilled this role.

Maybe as you say, these verses are not in your Bible.

Kind regards
Trevor
Twisting words again.
The words you spoke previously was just your conclusion , opinion , not scripture.
I am sure you know the ones I speak of .
Even in these posts you admit you posted scripture to deceive .
It speaks of the people not John .
You tried to pass it off as directly speaking of John .
Deceiving practices , no matter how small, is sinful.
Prove my posted verses are wrong .
Out of context , misquoted or ever how you wish to address them .
But do so without being deceiving .
 
Both the verses above (i.e. excepting Isaiah) relate to the Christian era, which came after John the Baptist. Also, the false teachers in the main arose from Greek speakers, not Jews.

You're the one twisting a doctrine to fit a message as it never says everyone harkened to John's message.
LOL
you people are unbelievable.
When did I say
everyone harkened to John’s message?
I don’t think you people know what you believe.
 
You're spouting gibberish.
That is not showing where I made that statement.
Answer

If you accuse a fellow man of saying something and he did not say such .
This comes to mind .
Exodus 20:16 (KJV) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Gibberish to you I guess .
 
That is not showing where I made that statement.
Answer

If you accuse a fellow man of saying something and he did not say such .
This comes to mind .
Exodus 20:16 (KJV) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Gibberish to you I guess .
I guess I misinterpreted your Luke 9:5 reference as a statement that John's message hadn't been universally received. But now, if I understand it correctly, you were in fact quoting it against everyone who dares to disbelieve your message that John the Baptist didn't have the spirit and power of Elijah (Luke 1:17). If so, it isn't what the bible is for.
 
I guess I misinterpreted your Luke 9:5 reference as a statement that John's message hadn't been universally received. But now, if I understand it correctly, you were in fact quoting it against everyone who dares to disbelieve your message that John the Baptist didn't have the spirit and power of Elijah (Luke 1:17). If so, it isn't what the bible is for.
Again you error
2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

As for Luke 9:5
I have brought it to your attention.
Believe scripture or not you have been told .
Fire is on your head now .

Luke 1:19
I showed you John did not come in the spirit and POWER of Elijah.

Luke 21:15 (KJV)
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

I say this with no intent to hurt .
Because I can see you are not very knowledgeable in the word .
As time passes you will learn and understand.
 
Again you error
2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

As for Luke 9:5
I have brought it to your attention.
Believe scripture or not you have been told .
Fire is on your head now .

Luke 1:19
I showed you John did not come in the spirit and POWER of Elijah.

Luke 21:15 (KJV)
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

I say this with no intent to hurt .
Because I can see you are not very knowledgeable in the word .
As time passes you will learn and understand.
I have not the faintest idea what you're talking about.
 
John 1:21 (KJV) And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
John the Baptist denied being Elijah.
Yes, according to this particular gospel, John denied being Elijah. That is established, incidentally, from the first "art thou" question... the second, as has been pointed out to you elsewhere, concerns his denial of being the prophet like Moses anticipated in Deuteronomy.

Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Read again closely
Jesus never said John was Elijah.
The disciples assumed it .
You are making the mistake of reading Matthew through a Johannine lens... if you let the Matthean text speak for itself, it is equally obvious that this author thinks John was Elijah. There is an explicit such claim placed in the mouth of Jesus elsewhere in the gospel that you have overlooked here. I will quote the section at length, since it is pertinent to discussion later on in the thread about John's role as the Isaianic messenger:

As they went away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John: "What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken by the wind? What then did you go out to see? Someone dressed in soft robes? Look, those who wear soft robes are in royal palaces. What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written,
'See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

Truly I tell you, among those born of women no one has arisen greater than John the Baptist; yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John came; and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come. Let anyone with ears listen!"
Matt 11:7-15


On reaching 17:11-13, the equation of John and Elijah has already been established by the author... it can thus be reiterated in different and even ambiguous words in order to provide several of Jesus' disciples with a moment of intellectual clarity --- the verb συνιημι (syniemi) means "to have an intelligent grasp of something that challenges one's thinking or practice" (BDAG). To suggest that 17:13 conveys the subjects' misunderstanding of an equation between John and Elijah is to misread the text:

And the disciples asked him, "Why, then, do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" He replied, "Elijah is indeed coming and will restore all things; but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but they did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man is about to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them about John the Baptist.
Matt 17:10-13


The disciples (contextually Peter, James and John; cf. 17:1) are narrated to have seen a vision of Moses and Elijah with the transfigured Jesus (17:2-3) and their disappearance (17:8) prompts them to ask about the tradition of Elijah's coming (cf. Mal 4:5-6). At this point they understand this literally and are genuinely confused about the prophet's brief appearance on the mountain that fails to meet expectations. Jesus proceeds to correct their misunderstanding by claiming that Elijah has already come, but was not recognized... he draws parallel between what he is about to suffer with what was done to this Elijah, a cryptic reference to John's beheading narrated in flashback at 14:3-11. The disciples grasp the connection, which challenges their previous literal interpretation of Elijah, now coming to understanding that John the Baptist was this Elijah.

John the Baptist never operated in the spirit of Elijah but Jesus sure did .
The phrase "in the spirit of Elijah" comes from Luke 1:17 and, unless you're proposing Luke presents the angelic visitor who appears to Zechariah as an unreliable witness, the messenger's claim concerning Zechariah's future son (ie. John) can be taken as this gospel author's endorsement of a position somewhere between Matthew's (John is Elijah) and John's (John is not Elijah)... he comes not as Elijah, but in his spirit and power. This is an early attempt at resolving the tension between the two traditions... you are welcome to embrace that of John, but do not misread Matthew or outright ignore Luke in the process.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 
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