Mormons vs Mormonism

[Mesenja]

But I'm also confused because when I look at myself I think, "I'm not god or even a god". And I thought that before we became human that we weren't gods. Am I wrong? And when you say "we can become like Him". I assume that we can BECOME like him in deity meaning that we are not now gods, but we can be. Yes/No?​

Do you see yourself in the way out God views you? I think that you will be surprised when you recognize the limitless potential and opportunities that God had in store for you. We have both divine and human parentage. Mankind is fallen and estranged from God. As we become sanctified we reclaim our divine heritage. This may be an interesting topic however in my opinion it is a side issue. I don’t claim to have the last authoritative voice on the subject.​

 

[Mesenja]

His claim deserves nothing more.​

Such strong debating skills. ​

 

[Mesenja]

2 Peter 1:1-8
Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
​

 

[Aaron32]

Which is?

You guys believe 'faith + works' is the basis of salvation.

So, let's see your answer, I asked this before in this post: https://forums.carm.org/threads/mormons-vs-mormonism.8581/post-768119

But I'll repeat the questions:

I'm not sure if it matters, 'cuz I've already explained it, and you'll probably just be strawman-ing my beliefs 2 posts from now.

That's a question for u to answer. Are they necessary?

Yes. Works are necessary, but not the basis upon which we receive salvation.

If they are, what works are necessary and what happens to one's salvation if they don't do those works? IOW, how important are works?

Hmmm....this seems like a loaded question. I'm working on a new post to get to the point your getting to.

 

[Aaron32]

If you believe in salvation by faith alone then no you don’t agree with me. ​

Point taken. Just remember you said it, not me.

More importantly the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints doesn’t agree with you either on this. ​

I highly disagree.

Maybe we can resolve this impasse between us by having you give your interpretation of what the doctrine of salvation by faith alone is. In your own words not someone else’s. ​

I believe in faith just as you do, and any work that follows is merely an expression of that faith. You can say repentance + covenants + obedience, etc. = faith, but if I (or a protestant Christian) says it - no, no, no - only Mormons can say that.

I believe that we are saved by grace alone. Period end of story. It’s not our faith or our works that save us. It’s our response to God which is eternally vital as “there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God,save it be through the merits,and mercy,and grace of the Holy Messiah,who layeth down his life according to the flesh,and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit,that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead,being the first that should rise.” (2 Nephi 2:8) We have to be in Christ and figuratively a branch on the vine of Christ with God the husbandman to be fruitful in good works.

Everyone who is baptized into Christ has put on Christ. (Galatians 3:27) When we are in Christ through baptism we are a part of Jesus Christ who is the true vine, and a channel of His life chosen and appointed to bear fruit. (John 15:5,16)

And God doesn’t need our good works. They are for our benefit not His. The works that we do demonstrate not only our faith and obedience to but more importantly our love for Christ. Through the atonement of Christ we can have access to the transformational grace of our Saviour. Jesus just doesn’t forgive our sins he gives us the opportunity to be transformed into the type of people that are ready to experience eternal life which is God life.​

Great explanation. It's too bad you feel the need to monopolize it.

First of all I have defined the doctrine of salvation by faith alone through a Protestant source albeit indirectly.​

Just as our Protestant friend learned about Mormonism albeit directly.

Secondly you haven’t shown me where I misunderstood or misrepresented their position.​

That's because you never did. You just found a Catholic to restate your position. I'm saying many believe EXACTLY like you do. But, according to you, that seemingly impossible.

It means exactly what I said. Piper's soteriology is Calvinist and his ecclesiology is Baptist. ​

This is the genetic fallacy.

What should be important to you and of concern is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not agree with you that salvation by faith alone is true doctrine nor has it ever taught it.​

Well if "faith alone" meant "easy gracism" then I'd agree with you, but it's not.

The doctrine of salvation by faith alone salvation by faith alone is not found in the Book of Mormon or the Bible. Whether or not you were ever reprimanded for teaching the doctrine of salvation by faith alone well that’s besides the point. It doesn’t make it true.​

Well, forever be at an impasse until you can prove what "faith alone" means in Protestantism.
You can make your argument here.

I’m not making up any details to suit my narrative. I don’t have to. Truth is it’s own best argument​

So truth doesn't have any details? Or am I suppose to take your word for it?

Maybe @Magdalena is wrong. And when did I ever post on this form that Mormonism isn’t Christianity? If you can’t come up with evidence of this false claim then I think that you owe me an apology.​

I use the term "Christianity" as all other Christian religions non-Mormon.

If you side with our critics when push comes to shove then do you agree with them that Mormonism so called is a non-Christian cult?​

I think there's many Mormons that don't understand their religion, and get up on their reumptoms thinking they're the chosen ones. Is that a cult? Is that non-Christian? Maybe.

Sadly it appears to me that sooner or later you’re going to be grouped with our critics.​

Interestingly enough, I have more cordial discussions with other Christians than fellow Mormons. I take this comment as more of a compliment than an insult.

 

[Mesenja]

You guys believe 'faith + works' is the basis of salvation.​

I don’t believe that salvation equals faith plus works.​

Yes. Works are necessary, but not the basis upon which we receive salvation.​

I never said that works with the basis for receiving salvation. You complain that your arguments are being straw maned yet this exactly what you are doing here.​

 

[Aaron32]

Proves what point?

That you really believe in faith + works based on how you describe it.

 

[Aaron32]

No you just said it was faith. You didn’t qualify the letter a in the equation meaning that you never limited or modified the meaning of the word faith. On the other hand I did. Faith isn’t only belief.

Faith = belief in Jesus as Messiah + repentance + obedience in keeping covenants.​

I'm SO done. Apperantly only Mormons know what "living faith" is. That's basically what your saying.
And somehow "living faith" does not equal "salvation" unless it's phrased as belief in Jesus as Messiah + repentance + obedience = faith = salvation
some may call this faith + works = salvation

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

Such strong debating skills. ​

There's nothing to debate. His comment was hogwash. That's a statement. Not a question. Not an observation. A clear, concise statement. Now if he wishes to discuss his claim we can do that but I've made my position crystal clear. Right? Did I leave any doubt in your mind how I felt? I hope not.

 

[Mesenja]

Point taken. Just remember you said it, not me.​

Yes I remember.​

I highly disagree.​

This is irrelevant.​

I believe in faith just as you do, and any work that follows is merely an expression of that faith. You can say repentance + covenants + obedience, etc. = faith, but if I (or a Protestant Christian) says it - no, no, no - only Mormons can say that.​

Protestants believe in the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. This would logically and grammatically exclude repentance covenants and obedience. ​

Great explanation. It's too bad you feel the need to monopolize it.​

My my aren’t we touchy. Can you repost where you said anything even remotely close to what I said. Thanking you in advance.​

Just as our Protestant friend learned about Mormonism albeit directly.​

Who is our Protestant friend who learned about Mormonism albeit directly?​

That's because you never did. You just found a Catholic to restate your position. ​

Actually I did.​

I'm saying many believe EXACTLY like you do. But, according to you, that seemingly impossible.​

No it’s not seemingly impossible for me to believe that others would agree with me. You’re another story completely.​

Well if "faith alone" meant "easy gracism" then I'd agree with you but it's not.​

This is a strawman argument. Great job Aaron32. You use this fallacious argument against me and ironically it’s used against Protestants.​

Well, forever be at an impasse until you can prove what "faith alone" means in Protestantism.​

We will forever be at an impasse because you have no desire for a dialogue with me. Your opinion has reached the level of doctrine.​

You can make your argument here.​

No thanks.​

So truth doesn't have any details? Or am I suppose to take your word for it?​

No I have made my argument based on scripture and quotes from General Authorities. So no don’t take my word for it. ​

I use the term "Christianity" as all other Christian religions non-Mormon.​

Not all Christians believe in the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. And they certainly wouldn’t draw an equivalency between salvation by faith alone and salvation by faith.​

I think there's many Mormons that don't understand their religion, and get up on their presumptions thinking they're the chosen ones. Is that a cult? Is that non-Christian? Maybe.​

So now you believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a cult and non-Christian? ​

Interestingly enough I have more cordial discussions with other Christians than fellow Mormons. I take this comment as more of a compliment than an insult.​

Why doesn’t this surprise me? ?

 

[Mesenja]

I'm SO done. Apperantly only Mormons know what "living faith" is. ​

No apparently your learning a lot from BrianH and Theo1689. ​

That's basically what your saying.​

You don’t know what I am saying or do you care to know.​

And somehow "living faith" does not equal "salvation" unless it's phrased as belief in Jesus as Messiah + repentance + obedience = faith = salvation
​

Can you have faith without obedience?

Some may call this faith + works = salvation.​

Yes your new found Protestant friends who say that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a cult and non-Christian.

 

[Mesenja]

There's nothing to debate. His comment was hogwash. That's a statement. Not a question. Not an observation. A clear, concise statement. Now if he wishes to discuss his claim we can do that but I've made my position crystal clear. Right? Did I leave any doubt in your mind how I felt? I hope not.

Why do you feel the need to discuss something that you consider to be hogwash?

 

[radvermin]

Do you see yourself in the way out God views you? I think that you will be surprised when you recognize the limitless potential and opportunities that God had in store for you. We have both divine and human parentage. Mankind is fallen and estranged from God. As we become sanctified we reclaim our divine heritage. This may be an interesting topic however in my opinion it is a side issue. I don’t claim to have the last authoritative voice on the subject.​

Well, first, the last words you said to me were,
"Well considering how deceptive your intentions were in speaking to the LDS missionaries this reflects poorly and leaves suspect any claim of your willingness to have an open dialogue with us."
I didn't appreciate that. Please don't insinuate that I'm being deceptive, I try very hard to be open and honest.

I'm working on seeing myself how God sees me, but as a god? No. God doesn't see me as such. There is limitless potential and opportunities only as God allows and empowers, not of my own. All glory goes to God, I am only His servant.

 

[Mesenja]

That you really believe in faith + works based on how you describe it.​

Is that what you think? Sad.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

Why do you feel the need to discuss something that you consider to be hogwash?

I didn't say I felt the need. I stated that if he wanted to discuss what he claimed we would. Big difference.

 

[Aaron32]

Can you have faith without obedience?

Not a saving faith.
If someone has a faith that saves obedience should be a given, no?

 

[Mesenja]

“Faith alone is not enough. We need “works” to serve and to be served. We can’t do it alone.” We Can’t Do It Alone By Elder Robert D. Hales [excerpt]​

 

[Aaron32]

“Faith alone is not enough. We need “works” to serve and to be served. We can’t do it alone.” We Can’t Do It Alone By Elder Robert D. Hales [excerpt]​

Again, a saving faith already implies obedience.
So faith (that leads to obedience) is not enough? We need "works" on top of our obedience?

You're intentionally misrepresenting what's being said. Why?

 

[Mesenja]

Again, a saving faith already implies obedience. So faith (that leads to obedience) is not enough? We need "works" on top of our obedience? You're intentionally misrepresenting what's being said. Why?​

Protestants believe in the dogma called salvation by faith alone. When you point out scriptural passages that teach the necessity of works their response to this is we are saved by faith alone and if we have a true and saving faith we will do the works. Not doing work indicates that we don’t have true faith.

James 2:26
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

The apostle James makes a comparison here with the body being analogous to faith and the spirit being analogous to works. Just as a dead body or corpse is still a body so too faith without works is still faith.​

 

[Mesenja]

This second heresy—and it is the delusion and mania that prevails to this day in the great evangelical body of Protestantism—is the doctrine that we are justified by faith alone,without the works of the law. It is the doctrine that we are saved by grace alone, without works. It is the doctrine that we may be born again simply by confessing the Lord Jesus with our lips while we continue to live in our sins.

We have all listened to sermons by the great revivalists and self-appointed prophets of the various radio and television ministries. Whatever the subjects of their sermons may be,they always end with an invitation and a plea for people to come forward and confess the Lord Jesus and receive the cleansing power of his blood.

Television broadcasts of these sermons always show arenas or coliseums or stadiums filled with people, scores and hundreds and thousands of whom go forward to make their confessions,to become born-again Christians, to be saved with all they suppose this includes.

While driving along a highway in my car, I was listening to the radio sermon of one of these evangelists who was preaching of salvation by grace alone. He said all anyone had to do to be saved was to believe in Christ and perform an affirmative act of confession.

Among other things he said:“If you are traveling in a car,simply reach forth your hand and touch your car radio,thus making contact with me,and then say,‘Lord Jesus, I believe,’ and you will be saved.”

Unfortunately,I did not accept his generous invitation to gain instant salvation; and so I suppose my opportunity is lost forever!

Interwoven with this concept is the doctrine that the elect of God are predestined to be saved regardless of any act on their part,which, as I suppose, is part of the reason a Lutheran minister once said to me: “I was saved two thousand years ago,and there is nothing I can do about it one way or the other now,” meaning that he thought he was saved by the blood of Christ shed on Calvary, without any works or effort on his part. What Think Ye of Salvation by Grace? BRUCE R. MCCONKIE of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles January 10,​