Calvinist Ordo Salutis

Theo1689 said:
We don't believe there is a temporal delay, so your question is nonsensical and misrepresents what we believe. (I believe ReverendRV has already explained this to you.)
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Sorry you are ignoring the fact there is a logical order

and that logical order puts faith, coming to Christ, repentance before life

John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Acts 11:18 (ESV) — 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”


and faith before a cleansed heart

Acts 15:8 (ESV) — 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,

and faith before becoming a child of God

Galatians 3:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 
christ_undivided said:
There are levels of knowledge/enlightenment. Some know more than others. Some accept more than others.
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I'm not sure what you are actually saying here, or trying to say. The only point of knowledge that matters is the point of knowing that we are guilty before God but that there is hope in Christ. Once that we understand this, all other levels of understanding are of no account to rejecting or believing the gospel itself.

christ_undivided said:
Some believed Jesus was Messiah but refused to confess him. Salvation requires more than believing that Jesus is just Messiah.
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True enough, but the question is what more is required beyond believing. Scripture clearly states that believing in him is (at least) the point at which new life is given (you would say regeneration occurs prior to believing), which means they are born again believer's. If you refuse to acknowledge that which you have believed, then you are in very real danger:

Matt 10:32“Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.


christ_undivided said:
Being enlightened by the Divine touch of the Spirit of God and targeted for redemption is different than simply taking the words a person hears about Jesus Christ at "face value".
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In this forum, this is begging the question.

christ_undivided said:
Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
Joh 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
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Discussed above..
christ_undivided said:
Joh 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
Joh 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
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There is nothing here that suggests their belief was insincere or ineffectual!


Doug
 
christ_undivided said:
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Abraham received the Spirit of God just like those at Galatia.
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Galatians were Post-Pentecost Believers who have begun in the Spirit.
As for Abraham, God granted him righteousness for his belief with no mention of the Spirit.
Do not conflate Regeneration and Justification.
 
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ReverendRV said:
You and I agree that Jesus taught Nicodemus the Spirit would come and go at the New Birth. At Pentecost the Spirit would come and stay.
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I would say that the Spirit breathes where He desires. I wouldn't necessarily say that the Spirit "would come and go at the New Birth".
ReverendRV said:
Saint Peter wasn't Born Again at Pentecost, he was Indwelt at Pentecost...
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Regeneration (παλιγγενεσίᾳ) translates literally to "again birth". So regeneration and "born again" are speaking of the same thing which is accomplished through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 
Synergy said:
Galatians were Post-Pentecost Believers who have begun by the Spirit.
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Yup, and here is what Paul said to these men who had began in the Spirit but were ending in the flesh.

"I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God"

Began in the Spirit but not inherit the Kingdom of God? What does that tell us?

Synergy said:
As for Abraham, God granted him righteousness for his belief with no mention of the Spirit.
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Yep.

Synergy said:
Do not conflate Regeneration and Justification.
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Yep, God reckoning Abraham's faith in His promise as a righteous act does not amount to dying with Christ and being born again to new life.

The risen Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers who are begotten of God.
 
@Our Lord's God @TibiasDad @fltom

It's fascinating that the Calvinist system is an air-tight system in and of itself. But their attempt to subsume the Bible under their system fails each and every time. If after 500 years Calvinists have not finally arrived at that conclusion I don't know if another 500 years will help.
 
Synergy said:
@Our Lord's God @TibiasDad @fltom

It's fascinating that the Calvinist system is an air-tight system in and of itself.
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Actually it isn't even close to air-tight but they sure work hard to make it appear that way.

Synergy said:
But their attempt to subsume the Bible under their system fails each and every time. If after 500 years Calvinists have not finally arrived at that conclusion I don't know if another 500 years will help.
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Not when you are led by the spirit of lawlessness. When that happens, truth does not matter.
 
Synergy said:
@Our Lord's God @TibiasDad @fltom

It's fascinating that the Calvinist system is an air-tight system in and of itself. But their attempt to subsume the Bible under their system fails each and every time. If after 500 years Calvinists have not finally arrived at that conclusion I don't know if another 500 years will help.
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On the other hand, the nearly 2000 years of non-Calvinistic thought will equally remain undeterred given another 2000 years. (Though by then, we all will know the fullness of all our errors!)

Doug
 
Synergy said:
@Our Lord's God @TibiasDad @fltom

It's fascinating that the Calvinist system is an air-tight system in and of itself. But their attempt to subsume the Bible under their system fails each and every time. If after 500 years Calvinists have not finally arrived at that conclusion I don't know if another 500 years will help.
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Calvinism I am told tends to cycle up and down. I believe what happens as it begins to grow men see its inconsistencies and it cycles back down. We had been in a growth cycle
 
Synergy said:
The Calvinist Ordo Salutis has Regeneration happening before Repentance and even Justification. So, I have the following questions for Calvinists:
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Huh. When I read scripture I don’t see it ever put as the Calvinist ordo salutis.

I see a biblical order of salvation. I find it interesting you see it as Calvinistic. ?
 
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