God wanted human sacrifices for atonement of sin?

What's the difference?
If a Gentile would choose to be a God-fearer and observe Noachide Law as opposed to following Isaiah 56:1-8, how would that change their eternity?
A self-proclaimed noachide is quite different from one under the umbrella of Israel as stranger or as convert. The courts decide who is a noachide, convert, etc. That's why the issues in Acts 15 were brought before the Nazarene judges jurisdiction.
 
A response that completely ignores the argument I made. Epic failure.
I agree you've epically failed. The idea of Greek and Roman gods battling and losing to mortals like your idea has is quite comical.

Your god lost in a wrestling match. What a loser. ;)

No it isn't. Under every definition of the word emissary, sending an emissary is not appearing to him.
I told you to get familiar with the Jewish idea of emissary, shaliach, agent.

When you generalize, you inevitably get pie in your face.

Under every definition of the word appeared, sending an emissary is not appearing to him. The text says "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre". It's utterly amazing how desperate you are. Now, you are flat out rejecting the meaning of ordinary words to protect your theology.
From the Jewish Encyclopedia available online.

The Law of Agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another (the principal), and thereby legally binding the principal in his connection with a third person. The person who binds a principal in this manner is his agent, known in Jewish law as sheluaḥ or sheliaḥ (one that is sent): the relation of the former to the latter is known as agency (sheliḥut). The general principle is enunciated thus: A man's agent is like himself (Ḳid. 41b).
...

The only thing ridiculous about my comment is that you reject it only out of theological bias. READ THINGS IN CONTEXT!!!
I have. Just the context of Moses writing how he and others are God.

No it isn't. Under every definition of the word emissary, sending an emissary is not appearing to him. Under every definition of the word appeared, sending an emissary is not appearing to him.The text says "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre". It's utterly amazing how desperate you are. Now, you are flat out rejecting the meaning of ordinary words to protect your theology.
See above. You failed.

I am being consistent. There is only one true God; yet, the psalmist calls evil judges gods.
When they misjudge, but they are referred to as Ho Theos in Exodus 21:6; 22:8-9. So no, you're not consistent.

Was that figurative or literal? Figurative, otherwise it would contradict there only being one true God. Therefore, "God" is a generic word that can be used figuratively.
Then Jacob wrestling with God and God losing must be figurative? Or is your god that weak?

My first point has been established.
No, you didn't address the Jewish and cultural understanding of what emissaries represent. Refer to the info above.

YHWH is a name. No argument there.
No argument here.

My second point has been established.
Not really.

There is a difference between names and ordinary nouns. That's basic linguistics 101.
Not when nouns based on context are referring to YHWH. So several humans are referred to as the divine God.

So, my third point has been established: Categorically different situation.
No, the same situation. Why are you wussing on this fact?

So, why are you changing the topic as to ignore Scripture? Again, the text says "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre", and you reject it.
I don't reject it. When an emissary speaks the words of God, they are God.

God Bless
Always.
 
A self-proclaimed noachide is quite different from one under the umbrella of Israel as stranger or as convert. The courts decide who is a noachide, convert, etc. That's why the issues in Acts 15 were brought before the Nazarene judges jurisdiction.
I don't think that answered my question but okay.
 
What's the difference?
If a Gentile would choose to be a God-fearer and observe Noachide Law as opposed to following Isaiah 56:1-8, how would that change their eternity?
What's the difference? Someone who converts to Judaism becomes a Jew, they are adopted into the People of Israel, and are thus obligated to observe our covenant. Someone who does not convert to Judaism has no such obligation. They are only bound by the Noahide laws.
 
A response that completely ignores the argument I made. Epic failure.
I agree you've epically failed. The idea of Greek and Roman gods battling and losing to mortals like your idea has is quite comical.
Your god lost in a wrestling match. What a loser. ;)

What a silly response. It's almost like you never bother to think before replying.

DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
No it isn't. Under every definition of the word emissary, sending an emissary is not appearing to him.
I told you to get familiar with the Jewish idea of emissary, shaliach, agent.
When you generalize, you inevitably get pie in your face.

You don't appear before someone by emmesary. That's nonsense. "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre"

DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Under every definition of the word appeared, sending an emissary is not appearing to him. The text says "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre". It's utterly amazing how desperate you are. Now, you are flat out rejecting the meaning of ordinary words to protect your theology.
From the Jewish Encyclopedia available online.

The Law of Agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another (the principal), and thereby legally binding the principal in his connection with a third person. The person who binds a principal in this manner is his agent, known in Jewish law as sheluaḥ or sheliaḥ(one that is sent): the relation of the former to the latter is known as agency (sheliḥut). The general principle is enunciated thus: A man's agent is like himself (Ḳid. 41b).
...

What a pathetic excuse. None of this explains "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre". It's not even in the same ball park. Your talking legally binding acts. Your not talking about appearing, and Scripture says "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre". I believe what Scripture says, you don't. That is the whole discussion.

DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
I am being consistent. There is only one true God; yet, the psalmist calls evil judges gods.
When they misjudge, but they are referred to as Ho Theos in Exodus 21:6; 22:8-9. So no, you're not consistent.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Was that figurative or literal? Figurative, otherwise it would contradict there only being one true God. Therefore, "God" is a generic word that can be used figuratively.
Then Jacob wrestling with God and God losing must be figurative? Or is your god that weak?
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
My first point has been established.
No, you didn't address the Jewish and cultural understanding of what emissaries represent. Refer to the info above.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
YHWH is a name. No argument there.
No argument here.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
My second point has been established.
Not really.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
There is a difference between names and ordinary nouns. That's basic linguistics 101.
Not when nouns based on context are referring to YHWH. So several humans are referred to as the divine God.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
So, my third point has been established: Categorically different situation.
No, the same situation. Why are you wussing on this fact?
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
So, why are you changing the topic as to ignore Scripture? Again, the text says "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre", and you reject it.
I don't reject it. When an emissary speaks the words of God, they are God.

Given your refusal to read my statement in context, I see no reason to respond to such dishonestly. READ things in CONTEXT.

Again, why are you changing the topic as to ignore Scripture? The text says "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre", and you reject it.


God Bless
 
What's the difference? Someone who converts to Judaism becomes a Jew, they are adopted into the People of Israel, and are thus obligated to observe our covenant. Someone who does not convert to Judaism has no such obligation. They are only bound by the Noahide laws.
No...that isn't what I asked. Once again...you didn't read/comprehend.
But thanks for your attempt to answer my question.
 
What a silly response. It's almost like you never bother to think before replying.
I'm sure the rest of your responses will follow your silly habits.

I guess you can't address your weak god losing a wrestling match. ;)

Why is your ontological god a weakling?

You don't appear before someone by emmesary. That's nonsense. "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre"
Sure he does. The emissary appears before anyone the agent desires with all the power and in His name.

What a pathetic excuse. None of this explains "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre". It's not even in the same ball park. Your talking legally binding acts. Your not talking about appearing, and Scripture says "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre". I believe what Scripture says, you don't. That is the whole discussion.
It addresses that an emissary is for all intent purposes the actual agent in the presence of others. I guess you can't handle that you have no clue regarding Judaism nor cultural ideas as the background for Tanakh.

Your exhaustive search was pathetic, DOGB. :(

Given your refusal to read my statement in context, I see no reason to respond to such dishonestly. READ things in CONTEXT.
Grow up. You can't address the issues and are acting the wuss.

Again, why are you changing the topic as to ignore Scripture? The text says "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre", and you reject it.
I've addressed the issue. You just don't like it. Just admit you don't have a solution for consistency with humans being God in God's stead.

God Bless
Always.
 
Last edited:
No...that isn't what I asked. Once again...you didn't read/comprehend.
But thanks for your attempt to answer my question.
There is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. You asked why some people, converts, need to keep the 613 laws, while others, non-Jews, need only keep the seven categories. I answered this question.

Being a noahide does not "graft you in" to the People of Israel. The noahides laws are incumbant on everyone in the world, so if you have not formally converted to Judaism, and you don't have a Jewish mother, the noahides laws are the only ones that are obligatory for you. Converts are not noahides. A convert is someone who is adopted into the People of Israel, thus obligating them to keep the 613.
 
What a silly response. It's almost like you never bother to think before replying.
I'm sure the rest of your responses will follow your silly habits.
I guess you can't address your weak god losing a wrestling match. ;)
Why is your ontological god a weakling?

The response of one who doesn't think through the other position before replying.

DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
You don't appear before someone by emmesary. That's nonsense. "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre"
Sure he does. The emissary appears before anyone the agent desires with all the power and in His name.

The phrase "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre" does not mean "And an emissary of YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre". Read things as they are written as opposed to what you want them to say.

DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
What a pathetic excuse. None of this explains "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre". It's not even in the same ball park. Your talking legally binding acts. Your not talking about appearing, and Scripture says "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre". I believe what Scripture says, you don't. That is the whole discussion.
It addresses that an emissary is for all intent purposes the actual agent in the presence of others. I guess you can't handle that you have no clue regarding Judaism nor cultural ideas as the background for Tanakh.

Your exhaustive search was pathetic, DOGB. :(

You can continue to reject what Moses wrote all you want. You're only undermining your own position. Scriputure says "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre". It does not teach "And an emissary of YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre".

DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Given your refusal to read my statement in context, I see no reason to respond to such dishonestly. READ things in CONTEXT.
Grow up. You can't address the issues and are acting the wuss.

Seriously? You purposefully read my words out of context, and I need to grow up? You can't be serious.

DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Again, why are you changing the topic as to ignore Scripture? The text says "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre".
I've addressed the issue. You just don't like it. Just admit you don't have a solution for consistency with humans being God in God's stead.

It's not that I don't like it. I cannot accept absurdity. That's your argument, and all you are doing is undermining your position with this nonsense.

God Bless
 
The response of one who doesn't think through the other position before replying.
You don't have a response for your stance on a weakling as a god, right? If you think that your god was actually wrestling Jacob, then you have bigger issues in your ideology.

So does this thinking fall in line with why Jesus wasn't fully God in Phil 2? I mean, your god loses in wrestling so he must have been weakened coming into the flesh, etc.?

The phrase "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre" does not mean "And an emissary of YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre". Read things as they are written as opposed to what you want them to say.
The funny thing is, I know you don't read everything literally, because if you did, there would be no excuse given that Jesus acknowledges he has a God, God isn't flesh and blood, and other verses in the NT that acknowledges no one has seen God.

At the revelation at Sinai, God acknowledges has no form. You need to balance scripture. You're doing a poor job of it.

You can continue to reject what Moses wrote all you want. You're only undermining your own position. Scriputure says "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre". It does not teach "And an emissary of YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre".
I don't reject anything. I also accept that Moses wrote that he is God, as well as Abraham, the house of David, angels, judges, etc. So, you must several divinities if you're going to be consistent.

Seriously? You purposefully read my words out of context, and I need to grow up? You can't be serious.
Out of context? Hardly. So, do you accept the divinity of Moses and others?

It's not that I don't like it. I cannot accept absurdity. That's your argument, and all you are doing is undermining your position with this nonsense.
The only nonsense are your inconsistencies.

God Bless
He still does.
 
There is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. You asked why some people, converts, need to keep the 613 laws, while others, non-Jews, need only keep the seven categories. I answered this question.

Being a noahide does not "graft you in" to the People of Israel. The noahides laws are incumbant on everyone in the world, so if you have not formally converted to Judaism, and you don't have a Jewish mother, the noahides laws are the only ones that are obligatory for you. Converts are not noahides. A convert is someone who is adopted into the People of Israel, thus obligating them to keep the 613.
Yes, there definitely is something wrong with your reading comprehension.
Jewjitzu said, "One law for the native and stranger." That was after saying that Gentiles/strangers should only obey Noachide Law.
Which is it?
 
There is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. You asked why some people, converts, need to keep the 613 laws, while others, non-Jews, need only keep the seven categories. I answered this question.

Being a noahide does not "graft you in" to the People of Israel. The noahides laws are incumbant on everyone in the world, so if you have not formally converted to Judaism, and you don't have a Jewish mother, the noahides laws are the only ones that are obligatory for you. Converts are not noahides. A convert is someone who is adopted into the People of Israel, thus obligating them to keep the 613.
Jeshua made it simple.
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 
Yes, there definitely is something wrong with your reading comprehension.
No, she is correct.

Jewjitzu said, "One law for the native and stranger." That was after saying that Gentiles/strangers should only obey Noachide Law.
Which is it?
It's both. There are two categories of gentiles. 1) Ger Toshav - a gentile that follows the 7 noachide laws; and 2) Ger Tzedek - a gentile that has converted and follows the same laws a native Jew does.

At a minimum, any gentile should follow the noachide laws. Some choose to stay in the status of a noachide due to not adhering to circumcision, remaining married to a gentile spouse that doesn't want to convert, etc. You can't convert and remain married to a gentile.
 
No, she is correct.


It's both. There are two categories of gentiles. 1) Ger Toshav - a gentile that follows the 7 noachide laws; and 2) Ger Tzedek - a gentile that has converted and follows the same laws a native Jew does.

At a minimum, any gentile should follow the noachide laws. Some choose to stay in the status of a noachide due to not adhering to circumcision, remaining married to a gentile spouse that doesn't want to convert, etc. You can't convert and remain married to a gentile.
You said "one law for the native and stranger." If a Gentile converts, one assumes they're no longer a stranger.
So if it's one law for native and stranger, then that would be one law for everyone who fears God.
 
You said "one law for the native and stranger." If a Gentile converts, one assumes they're no longer a stranger.
Correct. They are a full-fledged Jews, and can marry other Jews. Converts are considered "born again" and not the same person.

So if it's one law for native and stranger, then that would be one law for everyone who fears God.
Not everyone fears God to the point of taking on all of the law, like the Sabbath, festivals, circumcision, etc.

For instance with respect to the Passover, no uncircumsized male may participate in the sacrifice, seder, etc.
 
Yes, there definitely is something wrong with your reading comprehension.
Jewjitzu said, "One law for the native and stranger." That was after saying that Gentiles/strangers should only obey Noachide Law.
Which is it?
It appears that @Jewjitzu and I disagree on this, although I would say the odds are very high that we are just misunderstanding him, and that if he further elaborated it would make more sense.

Here is my take. The verse about "One law for the native and stranger" uses the word ger, which is often translated as stranger. However, the word ger also means convert. The reason for this is that foreigners who put down roots in the land were required to convert (foreigners that came just to trade and leave were not). At any rate, the verse is thus better translated as "One law for both native born and convert." IOW one law for all jews, whether born Jews or adopted in Jews.

Judaism does not teach that the 613 laws apply to everyone in the world. One of the reasons we discourage converts is because there really is no good reason why they should have to take on the 613 laws -- they are perfectly fine obeying only the Noahide categories. Conversion is pretty much for those who have such a strong affinity for Israel that they are relentless in their desire to be a Jew, like Ruth.
 
Jeshua made it simple.
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
All rabbis teach this. It is standard Judaism. Jesus was not the originator of the teaching.
 
It appears that @Jewjitzu and I disagree on this, although I would say the odds are very high that we are just misunderstanding him, and that if he further elaborated it would make more sense.

Here is my take. The verse about "One law for the native and stranger" uses the word ger, which is often translated as stranger. However, the word ger also means convert. The reason for this is that foreigners who put down roots in the land were required to convert (foreigners that came just to trade and leave were not). At any rate, the verse is thus better translated as "One law for both native born and convert." IOW one law for all jews, whether born Jews or adopted in Jews.

Judaism does not teach that the 613 laws apply to everyone in the world. One of the reasons we discourage converts is because there really is no good reason why they should have to take on the 613 laws -- they are perfectly fine obeying only the Noahide categories. Conversion is pretty much for those who have such a strong affinity for Israel that they are relentless in their desire to be a Jew, like Ruth.
No, we agree. See post #433.
 
Jeshua made it simple.
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Nothing new here. Jesus borrowed from his predecessors.
 
Nothing new here. Jesus borrowed from his predecessors.
Sure but in the New Convenant we are no longer under the law which no one could keep anyways. The purpose of the law was for one to recognize that they are sinners and in need of a Savior. Jeshua is that Savior. No one will see Heaven unless you are Born Again and only then will your mind be renewed and understand that Jeshua is that ticket to Heaven..
 
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