Creative purposes

[SteveB]

You raised many interesting points. I’m essentially a Bible-based synergist at heart

Ok. I've never heard of a bible-based synergist before.

Monergism vs. synergism-which view is correct? | GotQuestions.org

Monergism vs. synergism-which view is correct? Does God do all the work of salvation, or does human responsibility (synergy) also play a role?

www.gotquestions.org

Interesting....

and I agree totally with everything you wrote except that I believe that it’s through the effectual Word of God that people can come to God (Rom 10:8-18).

Based on reading the bible, prayer, and talking to unbelievers about Jesus, I've come to think that 1 Corinthians 1:18-21, along with Isaiah 55:8-10 shows that God has imbued his Word with power to quicken everyone who hears the gospel preached.

Regeneration follows that (Eph 1:13) which is when one is exactly saved (Titus 3:5).

Yep.

Nowhere does the Bible mention that we are predestined to be saved.

Well, depending on what you mean by this, according to Romans 8:29, and God's foreknowledge, it looks to me that God predestines people who believe in Jesus to be conformed into the image of Jesus.

So, if being conformed to the image of Jesus is being saved, then I'd say that God does predestine people to be saved.

We are first saved “in Christ” and that predestines us to adoption, inheritance, and conformity to Christ. So, I would have to agree with them.

Yep.

Nowhere does the Bible mention that anyone is predestined to go to hell.

Agreed. For the sake of discussion, I'd encourage you to go over to the atheist forum. Just to see how the idea is perceived.
There's a number of people there who are convinced that they are being predestined to go to hell.

I've actually explained the issue of predestination, based explicitly on Romans 8:29 that nobody who is not saved is being predestined.
The only people who have the predestination work of God on their lives are people who are being conformed to the image of Jesus.

Nevertheless, If they remain unbelievers then they’ve sealed their destiny.

Indeed they have.
Yet, remember that before we believe in Jesus, we're all under condemnation. John 3:18.

Nihilism is very prevalent in this day and age.

Yeah.....
The idea I get is something akin to the ostrich, who shoves their head in the sand to avoid the inconveniences they don't like.

It manifests itself in different forms such as Calvinism’s nihilistic attitude to humans being images of God.

??
Um.... according to Genesis 1:26-27, we actually are created in the likeness and image of God.

What are those false teachers mainly saying?

It's all over the place. It'd take weeks to detail.

 

[Slyzr]

No, I don't think everyone wants to fight Rev.

You see what happened when I opened a fair thread? The opponents came in there to fight and accuse instead of letting something good come of it.

Rev, don't think of yourself as the only one here that wants to get along and doesn't want to fight.

When your team files we cannot be, what do you expect.

Ok we are dead ...... now.

Oops still typing.

 

[SteveB]

But foreknowledge is more than just merely looking ahead and knowing what each and every person does. That’s omniscience, meaning He knows all things, of which we both agree on that. Foreknowledge in the Greek is a verb, meaning He is doing something in His foreknowledge.

Based on Titus 2:11-14, I can see that.

So the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul, king of Assyria, even the spirit of Tilgath-pilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away into exile, namely the Reubenites, the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh, and brought them to Halah, Habor, Hara and to the river of Gozan, to this day.[1 Chronicles 5:26]

God used this king to fulfill His decreed will to attack the above ppl.

Ok. According to Habakkuk, God chose the babylonians to bring Israel to repentance.

The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. “So I will incite Egyptians against Egyptians; And they will each fight against his brother and each against his neighbor, City against city and kingdom against kingdom. “Then the spirit of the Egyptians will be demoralized within them; And I will confound their strategy, So that they will resort to idols and ghosts of the dead And to mediums and spiritists. “Moreover, I will deliver the Egyptians into the hand of a cruel master, And a mighty king will rule over them,” declares the Lord God of hosts.[Isaiah 19:1-4]

Yeah, not arguing about this issue.

This is a judgment due sin on the nations that don't believe in YHVH.

We're talking about what God does for people who believe in Jesus.

The Lord Himself said through the prophet Isaiah that He would incite Egyptians against Egyptians.

Yep.... And?
In Judges, 2 Chronicles 20, and other books we see that God confused the armies of other countries who were going to attack Israel.

What you are saying is that the cross could’ve been avoided, but was added to the narrative only after Adam and Eve rebelled.

Had Adam not eaten the fruit, God would have known beforehand.

The bible is describing the state of the human race after the fact.
The fact that God has described the garden of Eden and the two trees.... it's not that difficult to understand the variables.

We say that the cross was an 100% certainty, even from before He said, “Let there be light…” That’s why we say the fall had to happen, as the plan of the cross was there from before the beginning.

Based on what?
Jesus was foreknown to be crucified

You guys spend an awful lot of time debating various ideas of the bible. Why is this not allowed.

Jesus died because sin entered the world through the sin of Adam.

If there was no sin, then Jesus wouldn't have had to die.

There's a joke that's been running around the internet for several years now.

Aliens show up on earth, and as they're introduced to humans, a believer asks if they have ever heard of Jesus.

They responded, "of course! He visits us quite regularly and we celebrate his birthday every year and he's in regular attendance. What do you do for him?"

Nothing I've stated, or believe that the life and death of Jesus was unnecessary.
I simply made a statement about it.

I still haven’t forgotten your previous post, I just wanted to address this one while I had a little time.

Ok.

 

[Synergy]

Um, not BECAUSE of belief. You're eisegeting again, forcing your theology onto the text.

Um, THROUGH belief of the Truth. You're appealing to your flaming strawman again.

Exactly, we were set apart and cleansed by the Spirit (sanctified) which results in belief of the truth. That's the order of the text. That's the meaning of sanctifification here. Wonder how we were cleansed before belief? Hmm...

First it was regeneration before belief, now it's sanctification before belief, next it's _____________ before belief. You can fill in the blank to protect their systematic theories.

You have it backwards, it's like soteriological dyslexia. Why do you change the order and put yourself first, and your belief first?

Where do you see regeneration in 2 Th 2:13?

You have the proverbial cart (humanism) before the horse (God).

Humanism is an atheistic term. We are not atheists. Calvinism just love to overload words to satisfy their systematic theology myths.

Perhaps William Burkitt will help some others here, commenting on the text;
"Their election is amplified,

(1.) By the antiquity of it, from the beginning, that is, from all eternity, In the beginning was the word, Joh 1:1 that is, before the beginning, before God began to create any thing, the Word was.

(2.) From the means of its accomplishment; and they are two, one on God's part, the sanctification of the Spirit; the other on their part, the belief of the truth.

What happened to the regeneration of the Spirit? Isn't that a key doctrine of Calvinism?

Where note, 1. That election is to the means as well as to the end;

The means is the Word of God and the Sanctification of the Spirit. The end is Glorification.

and without the means, can the end never be attained; he that hath chosen us to salvation, hath chosen us to be holy, and to believe the truth, in order to salvation.

Note, 2. That sanctification and holiness are not the cause of our election, but the effect and fruit of it.

The subject here is election onto salvation. I see that Mr. Burkitt deliberately fractured the phrase "chosen us to salvation" into two: "chosen us" and later mentions "in order to salvation" and doesn't mention salvation until he has no choice when he has to quote 2 Th 2:13 at his last sentence.

Note, 3. That sanctification being the fruit, it is also the evidence of our election; Sic se apeit decretum*, thus the decree of God is made evident to us; the election of God is a secret in the bosom of God, it is only manifested to us by the effects, which are sanctification by the Spirit, and a sound belief of the gospel.

The Effectual Word of God and the Sanctification of the Spirit is the means.

Where mark, a bare belief of the doctrine of the gospel saves none, unless accompanied with the sanctification of the Spirit.

Note, 4. The necessary connection between the sanctification of the Spirit, and the belief of the truth, even as between the cause and the effect, and they do also accompany one another; the gospel was a supernatural doctrine, and it was fit that it should be accompanied with a supernatural operation, how else should it be known to be of God? The gospel and the Spirit are inseparable companions; where the gospel is little known, there is little of the Spirit found: He hath chosen you to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth."

* thus the decision was taken

Conclusion: our election unto salvation is conditional on the sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

 

[Synergy]

Notice in his pet verse there is no human action. It's all about what God does.

You're declaring that "there is no human action" in 2 Th 2:13 that contains the phrase "belief of the truth".
Your statement is true ONLY if God does the action of "Belief of the truth".
Prove that.
I'll get the popcorn...........

 

[SovereignGrace]

Based on Titus 2:11-14, I can see that.

Good. Agreement here.

Ok. According to Habakkuk, God chose the babylonians to bring Israel to repentance.



Yeah, not arguing about this issue.

This is a judgment due sin on the nations that don't believe in YHVH.

Agreed.

We're talking about what God does for people who believe in Jesus.

He saved them. Belief[faith] is evidence of salvation, not the cause.

Yep.... And?
In Judges, 2 Chronicles 20, and other books we see that God confused the armies of other countries who were going to attack Israel.

And? It shows that God uses ppl and/or nations to fulfill His decreed will.

Had Adam not eaten the fruit, God would have known beforehand.

The bible is describing the state of the human race after the fact.
The fact that God has described the garden of Eden and the two trees.... it's not that difficult to understand the variables.

This is Molinism at its core. Things do not unfold merely because He knows beforehand they will occur. That’s deism. All things come to pass because He has decreed they will come to pass. Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;[Isaiah 46:10] If He has declared the end from the beginning, then all things in between have been declared also.

Based on what?
Jesus was foreknown to be crucified

But this not not to be taken as Him only to know ahead of time this would happen. Foreknown is a verb.

You guys spend an awful lot of time debating various ideas of the bible. Why is this not allowed.

Jesus died because sin entered the world through the sin of Adam.

Yes, Jesus died because sin entered into the world. But this plan was part and parcel the creation account. It is not an addendum.

If there was no sin, then Jesus wouldn't have had to die.

But that was not part of the plan. The fall had to happen.

There's a joke that's been running around the internet for several years now.

Aliens show up on earth, and as they're introduced to humans, a believer asks if they have ever heard of Jesus.

They responded, "of course! He visits us quite regularly and we celebrate his birthday every year and he's in regular attendance. What do you do for him?"

Non sequitur.

Nothing I've stated, or believe that the life and death of Jesus was unnecessary.
I simply made a statement about it.


Ok.

I never said you said His death was unnecessary. My gripe is that you have the cross as an contingency plan. You are promoting Molinism, and may not be aware of it.

 

[Synergy]

Ok. I've never heard of a bible-based synergist before.

Monergism vs. synergism-which view is correct? | GotQuestions.org

Monergism vs. synergism-which view is correct? Does God do all the work of salvation, or does human responsibility (synergy) also play a role?

www.gotquestions.org

Interesting....

The web site does an abysmal and wrenching job of representing the synergism side.
I can produce a whole essay about its abysmal failures but suffice it to say that the Bible has us as the Lord’s Fellow Synergistic Workers in 1 Cor 3:9 and Mark 16:20:

(1 Cor 3:9) "For of God we are fellow-workers (συνεργοί· Θεοῦ), a field of God, and you are a building of God."

συνεργοί· Θεοῦ means God's synergistic fellow-workers/co-workers. No monergism here.

(Mark 16:20) "And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them (τοῦ Κυρίου συνεργοῦντος) and confirmed the message by accompanying signs."

τοῦ Κυρίου συνεργοῦντος transliterates to our Lord's synergistic fellow-workers/co-workers. No monergism to be had here either.

Based on reading the bible, prayer, and talking to unbelievers about Jesus, I've come to think that 1 Corinthians 1:18-21, along with Isaiah 55:8-10 shows that God has imbued his Word with power to quicken everyone who hears the gospel preached.

Thanks for those verses.

Well, depending on what you mean by this, according to Romans 8:29, and God's foreknowledge, it looks to me that God predestines people who believe in Jesus to be conformed into the image of Jesus.

I think we're saying the same thing. I like to place things in chronological order: Those who believe 'in Christ" are positioned "in Christ" and are saved (John 3:16). Once "in Christ", we become predestined to be conformed to the Image of Jesus.

So, if being conformed to the image of Jesus is being saved, then I'd say that God does predestine people to be saved.

Belief comes first. By believing "in Christ" (Eph 1:13), we obtained an inheritance and are predestined (Eph 1:11). We are also predestined to be conformed to the Image of Christ. I have never seen a verse that explicitly says that God predestines people to be saved.

Agreed. For the sake of discussion, I'd encourage you to go over to the atheist forum. Just to see how the idea is perceived.
There's a number of people there who are convinced that they are being predestined to go to hell.

That is defeatism and a self-fulfilling prophecy on their part. How sad.

I've actually explained the issue of predestination, based explicitly on Romans 8:29 that nobody who is not saved is being predestined.
The only people who have the predestination work of God on their lives are people who are being conformed to the image of Jesus.

Yes. God saves those who believe. It's as simple as that.

??
Um.... according to Genesis 1:26-27, we actually are created in the likeness and image of God.

Correct, and yet Calvinists think that man has no more ability to understand the Bible, through the Effectual Living Word of God, than a dead person. Their nihilism against the Effectual Living Word of God is very apparent.

It's all over the place. It'd take weeks to detail.

Thanks for that information.

 

[travelah]

He’s buried with original sin right?

You are running down your own rabbit trail with that one.

 

[travelah]

Where?

The same decision that rejects Semi-Pelagianism. Ask one of the Calvinists about it.

 

[Howie]

The same decision that rejects Semi-Pelagianism. Ask one of the Calvinists about it.

Talking out of your hat, you are.

 

[SteveB]

Good. Agreement here.



Agreed.




He saved them. Belief[faith] is evidence of salvation, not the cause.





And? It shows that God uses ppl and/or nations to fulfill His decreed will.



This is Molinism at its core. Things do not unfold merely because He knows beforehand they will occur. That’s deism.

I don't see it as deism.
Granted, my understanding of deism is the clockmaker building the watch and walking away, leaving it to unwind.

I see God as being intimately involved with his creation.
So, you have a different perspective of deism than I've ever heard of.

All things come to pass because He has decreed they will come to pass. Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;[Isaiah 46:10] If He has declared the end from the beginning, then all things in between have been declared also.

You're describing a condition that we are puppets, and not actually created in his image and likeness.

So how does that work?
You can call my ideas molinism all you want. I don't have a theological term for what I'm understanding of your description. But your idea is unbiblical in my opinion.

But this not not to be taken as Him only to know ahead of time this would happen. Foreknown is a verb.

Ok. Let's do it this way.
I see foreknowledge as a matter of God's awareness of all as yet unknown future activities.
As awareness requires the action of thinking (an action word), I'm not sure what you're talking about.

You appear to think that the process of thinking is not an action, but simply a noun.

Yes, Jesus died because sin entered into the world. But this plan was part and parcel the creation account. It is not an addendum.



But that was not part of the plan. The fall had to happen.

Non sequitur.




I never said you said His death was unnecessary. My gripe is that you have the cross as an contingency plan. You are promoting Molinism, and may not be aware of it.

I don't see where I'm saying, or have said that the cross is a contingency.

Good. Agreement here.



Agreed.




He saved them. Belief[faith] is evidence of salvation, not the cause.





And? It shows that God uses ppl and/or nations to fulfill His decreed will.



This is Molinism at its core. Things do not unfold merely because He knows beforehand they will occur. That’s deism. All things come to pass because He has decreed they will come to pass. Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;[Isaiah 46:10] If He has declared the end from the beginning, then all things in between have been declared also.




But this not not to be taken as Him only to know ahead of time this would happen. Foreknown is a verb.



Yes, Jesus died because sin entered into the world. But this plan was part and parcel the creation account. It is not an addendum.



But that was not part of the plan. The fall had to happen.



Non sequitur.




I never said you said His death was unnecessary. My gripe is that you have the cross as an contingency plan. You are promoting Molinism, and may not be aware of it.

Ok.
Having never heard of molinism before, I read the following article.

What is Molinism and is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

What is Molinism and is it biblical? How is Calvinism different from Molinism?

www.gotquestions.org

I never would have considered any of these descriptions before.

While I am acquainted with WLC, and Platinga, I have not studied them.

I see that calvinists have a problem with molinism.

Based on the description given in the article, with a quick read of the article, I'm not bothered by your accusation.

Many of the ideas described in the bible, which are highly complex, I hold my views tentatively, and hold final judgment until I am in heaven, with Jesus.

Once he explains everything, then I'll make my decisions about it all.

So, when you say that some view I have a description of is such and such a belief, or ism, you appear to be trying to force me into a position that I don't have a lockstep position on.

My life's experiences are fluidly moving me through life, and Jesus himself is my anchor through it all. He is my center, through life.

I read the bible, pray, attend church, engage in fellowship with other Jesus followers and experience life.

As Paul says in Philippians 2:12-13, I'm working out my salvation with fear and trembling, learning to increase my confidence that God is at work in me both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Thankfully, according to Philippians 1:6, and psalm 138:8, God will perfect/complete that which concerns me.

So, if you're going to call my beliefs a variety of isms to make you feel better, then consider the following.

There are many things in life which I'm still learning about. I know that when I stand before Jesus, the vague ideas of life will be clarified by Him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I don't see it as deism.
Granted, my understanding of deism is the clockmaker building the watch and walking away, leaving it to unwind.

If the fall was not part of God's plan, then God stood back and watched it happen, did nothing to stop it, when He could have. That is the very definition of deism.

The reason why the fall happened was because it served Him a purpose, and that is why we say He decreed the fall, and was intimately involved in it occurring.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I see God as being intimately involved with his creation.
So, you have a different perspective of deism than I've ever heard of.

He is intimately involved with His creation. In fact, He is intimately involved in the reprobation of the non-elect, those He justly left in their condemned in Adam condition.

You're describing a condition that we are puppets, and not actually created in his image and likeness.

So how does that work?
You can call my ideas molinism all you want. I don't have a theological term for what I'm understanding of your description. But your idea is unbiblical in my opinion.

Was the Assyrian king in 1 Chronicles 5:26 a puppet when God stirred him to attack Israel? Were Joseph's brothers puppets when they sold Joseph into slavery? Was Moses' Pharaoh a puppet when God said He raised him to his lofty position to display His power in him and also hardened his heart? Were the Roman and Jewish conspirators puppets when they crucified the Christ? All of these show that God moves ppl to do what He has decreed them to do, to fulfill His decreed will, and yet He never violated their wills. He used their wills to fulfill His decreed will.

Ok. Let's do it this way.
I see foreknowledge as a matter of God's awareness of all as yet unknown future activities.
As awareness requires the action of thinking (an action word), I'm not sure what you're talking about.

You appear to think that the process of thinking is not an action, but simply a noun.

You are conflating foreknowledge with omniscience. God is fully aware of everything. If time lasts until 6,025 AD, He already knows what takes place there as He is omniscient. Foreknowledge deals with how God fulfills His decreed will. It's a verb in the Greek, meaning God does something in His foreknowledge.

I don't see where I'm saying, or have said that the cross is a contingency.

If Adam could have possibly avoided doing what he did, then the cross would have be unnecessary, right? So, in your view [if I have it correct] the fall could have not taken place, thereby, negating the cross. That is what I meant by it being a contingency plan.

Ok.
Having never heard of molinism before, I read the following article.

What is Molinism and is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

What is Molinism and is it biblical? How is Calvinism different from Molinism?

www.gotquestions.org

I never would have considered any of these descriptions before.

While I am acquainted with WLC, and Platinga, I have not studied them.

I see that calvinists have a problem with molinism.

Based on the description given in the article, with a quick read of the article, I'm not bothered by your accusation.

Many of the ideas described in the bible, which are highly complex, I hold my views tentatively, and hold final judgment until I am in heaven, with Jesus.

Once he explains everything, then I'll make my decisions about it all.

So, when you say that some view I have a description of is such and such a belief, or ism, you appear to be trying to force me into a position that I don't have a lockstep position on.

My life's experiences are fluidly moving me through life, and Jesus himself is my anchor through it all. He is my center, through life.

I read the bible, pray, attend church, engage in fellowship with other Jesus followers and experience life.

As Paul says in Philippians 2:12-13, I'm working out my salvation with fear and trembling, learning to increase my confidence that God is at work in me both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Thankfully, according to Philippians 1:6, and psalm 138:8, God will perfect/complete that which concerns me.

So, if you're going to call my beliefs a variety of isms to make you feel better, then consider the following.

There are many things in life which I'm still learning about. I know that when I stand before Jesus, the vague ideas of life will be clarified by Him.

Please read up on Molinism, as you are promoting it, whether you are aware of it or not.

 

[SovereignGrace]

(1 Cor 3:9) "For of God we are fellow-workers (συνεργοί· Θεοῦ), a field of God, and you are a building of God."

συνεργοί· Θεοῦ means God's synergistic fellow-workers/co-workers. No monergism here.

(Mark 16:20) "And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them (τοῦ Κυρίου συνεργοῦντος) and confirmed the message by accompanying signs."

τοῦ Κυρίου συνεργοῦντος transliterates to our Lord's synergistic fellow-workers/co-workers. No monergism to be had here either.

?‍

This is God working through His regenerate ppl to spread the gospel, not synergistically saving lost ppl from their sins. You cannot force this onto the lost ppl and expect it to stick. A YUGE category error in the above.

 

[Reformedguy]

You're declaring that "there is no human action" in 2 Th 2:13 that contains the phrase "belief of the truth".
Your statement is true ONLY if God does the action of "Belief of the truth".
Prove that.
I'll get the popcorn...........

Beleif is something granted by God. Still no human action in that verse.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Beleif is something granted by God. Still no human action in that verse.

Now, now, now...youse nose better than this. Free will trumps belief.

 

[Synergy]

(1 Cor 3:9) "For of God we are fellow-workers (συνεργοί· Θεοῦ), a field of God, and you are a building of God."

συνεργοί· Θεοῦ means God's synergistic fellow-workers/co-workers. No monergism here.

(Mark 16:20) "And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them (τοῦ Κυρίου συνεργοῦντος) and confirmed the message by accompanying signs."

τοῦ Κυρίου συνεργοῦντος transliterates to our Lord's synergistic fellow-workers/co-workers. No monergism to be had here either.

?‍

This is God working through His regenerate ppl to spread the gospel, not synergistically saving lost ppl from their sins. You cannot force this onto the lost ppl and expect it to stick. A YUGE category error in the above.

Calvinists fail miserably to acknowledge how the Effectual Living Word of God synergistically saves lost people (Rom 10:8-18). This is a massive hole in their soteriology.

 

[Synergy]

Beleif is something granted by God. Still no human action in that verse.

If there is no human action in belief then it's God who performs the belief. In other words, God believes for you. Am I understanding you?

 

[ReverendRV]

Calvinists fail miserably to acknowledge how the Effectual Living Word of God synergistically saves lost people (Rom 10:8-18). This is a massive hole in their soteriology.

RC Sproul said Sanctification is Synergistic. We would say that Election is not Synergistic; since it is not of the Will...

 

[Synergy]

RC Sproul said Sanctification is Synergistic.

Do you agree or not with what the Bible says about the Effectual Living Word of God?

We would say that Election is not Synergistic; since it is not of the Will...

We need to be really careful with our discussions about Election. There is election onto salvation. There is the Biblical fact that election is conditional on our diligence. There is election onto a vocation (i.e.: the good works that God has preordained for us). There is election "in Christ". Christ is God's Archetype Elect. There is the purpose of God according to election. Angels are elect. And on and on... So a blanket statement "that election is not synergistic" does not do justice to the many facets of election.