Runningman
Well-known member
That doesn’t answer my question.
The "IT" Logos
- Thread starter Our Lord's God
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Runningman
Well-known member
Tanachreader
Well-known member
Where does it say He is only a mere man.
Jesus is fully man and fully God. He was God’s Son and God Himself in human flesh (John 3:16; 1 Timothy 3:16; Colossians 2:9).
He is part of the Trinity—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—equal with God and infinite (Revelation 1:8; 22:13; 2 Peter 1:1).
Isaiah 1;Isaiah 9:6;Matthew 1:23;Hebrews 1
Runningman
Well-known member
I asked you where Jesus directly said he is God. You keep quoting your one-trick-ponys that don't say Jesus is God, but also aren't quotes by Jesus.
You weren't actually supposed to try to answer this question. It was rhetorical for your self-reflection and discovery. Jesus never said he is God because he isn't. He is the one God sent.
So what you lack is actually any sort of foundation for your belief.
Tanachreader
Well-known member
Jesus said, “I and My Father are one.”
Jesus made another statement claiming to be God when He said, “Very truly I tell you, . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58). The Jews, upon hearing Him, clearly understood that He was claiming preexistence and, more than that, to be Yahweh, the great “I AM” of Exodus 3:14. On this occasion, too, they tried to stone Him for blasphemy.
God the Father sent Jesus.
Jesus is the Creator the Word.
You beliefs are a heresy.
Show us were it says He is just a mere man without pre-existance.
Micah 5:2
Towerwatchman
Well-known member
It caught my interest, so I purchased “The Scriptures”, Institute for Scripture Research, 2009 Edition, Republic of South Africa.
Allow me to quote from this publication.
Introduction page 17 “The Tanak in this translation is based on the Masoretic Hebrew and Aramaic text of the Scriptures, printed in the 1937 edition of Rudolph Kittel’s Biblia Hebraica. This is based on the ben Asher text of Leningrad B 19a. Generally speaking, there are a few problems with the Masoretic text, because the Masoretes copied the Scriptures in great fear of making mistakes and altering the text. They used the device of the Kethib and Qere by means of which they indicated in the margins their preferred readings. However, they did make a few changes in the text itself which have been recorded for us, but unfortunately not all in one manuscript. In 134 places the Sopherim [Scribes] removed the Name יהוה and substituted the term Adonai. In a further 8 placers the Name יהוה was substituted by the term Elohim. Theses have been collected b Dr. C.D. Ginsberg in his ‘Introduction to the Massoretico-Critical Edition of the Hebrew Bible.’”
Introduction page 18. “Unfortunately, we do not have the original text. Only very old copies are currently available, until the archaeologists give us something more. The oldest, but not necessarily the ‘best’ copies currently available are in Greek. Were these [ultimately] copies of Greek or Semitic [i.e. Hebrew / Aramaic] originals?
Page 1222 Explanatory Notes.
Emendations by the Sopherim = The 134 passages where the Sopherim [scribes] altered the Name יהוה to Adonai have been restored in The Scriptures, which are,
{For this discussion I am interested in Isaiah.]
Yeshayahu [Isaiah] 3:17,18/ 4:4/ 6:1,8,11/ 7:14,20/ 8:7/ 9:8,17/ 10:12/ 11:11/ 21:6,8,16/ 28:2/ 29:13/ 30:20/ 37:24/ 38:14,16/ 49:14
Page 1223
The additional passages where the Sopherim substituted the Name יהוה with Elohim are:
Yeshayahu [Isaiah] 2:11
I use New King James Version, which used = 1967-1977 Stuttgart edition of the Bibla Hebraica, / Daniel Bomberg ‘Rabbinic Bible’ 1524-25, / LXX /Latin Volgate / Dead Sea Scrolls to translate.
Also use.
“The English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear Old Testament New King James Version.” Michael S Heiser. Lexham Press.
You cited “Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, R Kittel, 1984”, “The Scriptures Bible”.
How do we test this? Something interesting, one of the Dead Sea Scrolls is a complete copy of Isaiah, which is the oldest copy mentioned in this post.
I am using 'The Lexham Dead Sea Scrolls Hebrew - English Interlinear Bible ,2016,
In the business world when a company is audited, the auditors do not go over everything, but take samples to determine, [based on the samples], if the ‘books’ are true. We shall take a sample [Isaiah] to test if these allegations are true.
After comparing the alleged Masoretic changes in Isaiah, against the Dead Sea Scroll copy of Isaiah and ‘The English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear Old Testament New King James Version’ I found the following.
When comparing Isaiah Yeshayahu [Isaiah] 2:11/ 3:17,18/ 4:4/ 6:1,8,11/ 7:14,20/ 8:7/ 9:8,17/ 10:12/ 11:11/ 21:6,8,16/ 28:2/ 29:13/ 30:20/ 37:24/ 38:14,16/ 49:14
Only the following agree with your sources. Yeshayahu [Isaiah] 6:11/ 7:14/ 9:8, / 21:16/ 28:2.
In the others either Adonai is found in the Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah which agrees with The English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear Old Testament New King James Version’.
Or
When יהוה is found in the Dead Sea Scroll, it is also found in The English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear Old Testament New King James Version’.
Out of 24 verses, of Isaiah, noted by Biblia Hebraica 5 were correct. That’s 20.8% accuracy. In other words, if we accept the correction for Isaiah, the ‘corrected copy’ of Isaiah would be less accurate than the one we began with.
After the authors of ‘The Scriptures” corrected the errors, the replaced Theos with Elohim in the NT.
John 1:1 reads. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.” = Trinity or Polytheism. You pick.
As for Genesis 18:3 “eyes” is not plural but dual. It applies to one person.
dual — This grammatical number tag indicates a form of some nouns (including numerals - and adjectives in those databases that tag some numerals as adjectives) for indicating that two things are being referenced. For example, the Hebrew words for “hands” and “hips” occur in the dual form since a person only has two such items. However, when a word does not have a grammatically plural form, the dual may be used to indicate more than two. See J.-M. §91, §150d; BHRG §24.3.4; IBHS §7.3; GKC §88.
Heiser, M. S., & Setterholm, V. M. (2013; 2013). Glossary of Morpho-Syntactic Database Terminology. Lexham Press.
Also, based on “The Scriptures” the BHS claims that Genesis 20:4 was changed. = “But Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a righteous nation also?”
Now if I know my history, God did not reveal His name until Exodus. How does Abimelech know YHWH’s name?
Based on the samples, the BHS’ claim is unreliable.
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johnny guitar
Well-known member
BY Him to reconcile ALL things to HIMSELF.
IOW God performed the act of reconciliation HIMSELF.
And as usual you failed to address Matthew 1:23. Too hot for you to handle????
Matt 1:23 doesn't mean that Jesus himself is God, but that God (i.e. the Father) is one with Jesus, i.e. that anyone who has seen Jesus has seen the Father, as what Jesus does is just what the Father has commanded him. This "sight of God" is not literal, but spiritually perceived. Thus the Pharisees remained blind to Jesus, just as they remained blind to God. God is Spirit, not flesh, and Matt 1:23 is a prophecy concerning the Spirit, not a prophecy that the man Jesus would be God in himself.
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johnny guitar
Well-known member
Complete balderdash. Matthew 1:23 has but ONE meaning. Jesus Christ is GOD WITH US.
Anyone who sees Jesus sees The Father.
Wow
So God carried out the act of reconciliation HIMSELF.
It pleased The Father that in Him should ALL fullness dwell.
And your continual EVASION of Matthew 1:23 is noted.
Runningman
Well-known member
Nothing you showed directly says Jesus is God nor did he ever say such. All you have is belief, circumstance, assertion, heresy. Check mate.
Runningman
Well-known member
Not according to the Bible. God's fullness dwelled in him, not that Jesus is God, but rather God was in him. God reconciled "all things" through his blood on the cross. Happened after he was born.
I didn't deny that Jesus is God with us. I was discoursing on how Jesus is God with us, which you assert to be because he is "God in the flesh" which IS complete balderdash.
Tanachreader
Well-known member
All those verses show Jesus is God and below verifies it.
Thomas exclaimed, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus responded by saying, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed”.
Your heresy also denies His pre-existance Micah 5:2;John 6:38;John 17:5;John 8:58
And that He created all things. John 1:1-14;
Col 1:
16For everything was created by him,
in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions
or rulers or authorities —
all things have been created through him and for him.17He is before all things,
and by him all things hold together.
Yahchristian
Well-known member
I agree !!!
Those verses show Jesus is GOD incarnate.
Whereas others on this forum believe Jesus is the third member of the Godhead incarnate.
Tanachreader
Well-known member
Despite becoming fully human, Jesus did not stop being God. His nature did not change, but His position did. He humbled Himself by laying aside His glory and privileges while remaining fully God.
Jesus is one of the three persons who make up the Holy Trinity: Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit. They are not three separate gods but one God in three persons.
Jesus is both the eternal Son of God and the incarnate Saviour, bridging the gap between divinity and humanity
Yahchristian
Well-known member
So when YOU say...
"All those verses show Jesus is God and below verifies it."
YOU actually mean...
"All those verses show Jesus is one of the three person who make up the Holy Trinity and below verifies it."
Whereas I would mean...
"All those verses show Jesus is God and below verifies it."
Thomas exclaimed, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus responded by saying, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed”.
Runningman
Well-known member
Yet Jesus never said he is God, God never said he’s God, and no one else said he’s God. Deal with the elephant in the room: your man-god is textbook idolatry.
Tanachreader
Well-known member
You refuse to acknowledge His pre-existence.
He is the seen God of the OT.
Isaiah among others saw Him.
1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
HIS FATHER says His Son is GOD!
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Even the Qumran Great Isaiah scroll written
in 100BCE confirms He is the Mighty God.
23. with burning consuming fire. (5) Because a child shall be born to us and a son is given to us and the government shall be upon
24. his shoulders and he shall be called wonderful, counsellor, mighty God, everlasting father the prince of peace. (6) Of the increase
25. of his government [&waw&} and his peace there shall be no end. upon the throne of David and over his kingdom to order it and to establish it
26. in judgement and in righteousness from and until eternity, The zeal of YHWH of Hosts will perform this.
Shows us the Spirit is not with you.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Runningman
Well-known member
They doesn’t say Jesus is God.
A quote from Psalm 45:6 about a human who isn’t YHWH.
Says he would be “called” that and then he wasn’t called that. Bad translation. Moot point.
Neither of those say Jesus is God.
So Jesus never said he’s God and no one else ever said it either? You have an idol.
Tanachreader
Well-known member
You need to start acknowledging scripture and reject this mere man cult.
In the New Testament, it is evident that Jesus is considered God and equal with the Father. However, to understand this fully, we can compare certain Old Testament verses with corresponding New Testament verses. Here are some examples:
Isaiah 40:3 speaks about preparing the way for the LORD (Yahweh). When we compare this verse with Mark 1:3, we see that Jesus is the LORD for whom John the Baptist prepared the way. “
A voice is calling,
“Prepare the way for Yahweh in the wilderness;
Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.
In Joel 2:32a, it says that whoever calls upon the Name of the LORD (Yahweh) will be saved. This verse is quoted by Peter in Acts 2:21 and by Paul in Romans 10:13, both referring to Jesus as the LORD.
Isaiah 6:1-10 describes Isaiah’s vision revealing the glory of the LORD (Yahweh). In John 12:40-41, John tells us that this vision revealed the glory of Jesus.
In Isaiah 44:6, the LORD (Yahweh) refers to Himself as “the First and the Last.” Similarly, in Revelation 1:8 and 17, Jesus refers to Himself as “the Alpha and the Omega” and “the First and the Last.”
In Zechariah 12:10, the LORD (Yahweh)speaks and says, “they will look on Me whom they have pierced.” This is Jesus speaking, as confirmed in Psalm 22:16 and John 19:34.
The New Testament consistently teaches that Jesus is God the Son, distinct from God the Father but equally divine