Any Ukrainians here, who are after all the only people whose opinion on this actually matters?
Does anyone agree that it would be better not to reduce Ukraine to rubble and kill more people, even if it comes at the expense of fighting this lovely war?
yesAny Ukrainians here, who are after all the only people whose opinion on this actually matters?
So we're not gonna stop until we have our knee in between Putin's shoulder blades and we're rubbing our knuckles on his head? What happens if he doesn't admit fault even then? The concern is that sometime before that happens, he may just launch a nuclear strike.I disagree that it is unimportant how this conflict was started and who was the aggressor.
It seems reasonable to conclude that Russia is going to secure for itself access to the Black Sea even if that means commandeering Ukrainian territory to do so. That's not exactly the same thing as absorbing the entire country of Ukraine and Russia. Maybe Russia rightly recognizes that absorbing Ukraine would be a little bit like swallowing a porcupine.It is loony to claim that Putin has no interest in annexing Ukraine and actually wants Ukrainians to decide if they want their country to remain a separate country.
And Russia considers itself to be a great power and it reserves the right to reduce every Ukrainian city to rubble if they make up themselves and existential threat to Russia. And as it turns out when a country considers itself to be a great power the only opinion that counts is the country that considers itself to be a great power.Sure, Putin does not want Ukraine to join NATO, but Ukraine as a sovereign nation should be able to make that decision, particularly as they live adjacent to a country that has proven to be a threat to them, and they want to ensure their own safety.
If you can do that go ahead…Stopping this war could be accomplished only by getting Putin to stop
I don't see any convincing evidence of that.or having Ukraine surrender.
There's absolutely no evidence of that. What Putin is willing to do is to reduce all of their cities to rubble and kill every able-bodied potential fighting man in Ukraine until they sue for peace. If that is the case and I believe that it is in the only solution is to go to a peace settlement while a lot of the people who would otherwise be dead are still alive.Putin will only stop if he is given what he wants (Ukraine) and Ukraine would certainly not agree to that.
I don't think so. Seems to me that Western nations do want Zelenskyy to keep fighting and don't want him to end the war because the west wants to defeat Russia within the borders of Ukraine. Mind you the West is not interested in doing any of the dying, that may be involved. We want to Ukrainians to do that part. The question Zelenskyy has to consider is will the West still have my back if I consider an option that slows the production of Ukrainian coffins.Any Ukrainians here, who are after all the only people whose opinion on this actually matters?
If we really cared what Ukrainians think we might've picked up on one of the several overtures that Zelenskyy has made to Russia for peace talks. But the West has been projecting deafening silence on that aspect of this conflict.
Are you saying we should have let Hitler take over Europe? After all, he was not likely to admit fault, right?So we're not gonna stop until we have our knee in between Putin's shoulder blades and we're rubbing our knuckles on his head? What happens if he doesn't admit fault even then? The concern is that sometime before that happens, he may just launch a nuclear strike.
It seems reasonable to conclude that Russia is going to secure for itself access to the Black Sea even if that means commandeering Ukrainian territory to do so. That's not exactly the same thing as absorbing the entire country of Ukraine and Russia. Maybe Russia rightly recognizes that absorbing Ukraine would be a little bit like swallowing a porcupine.
And Russia considers itself to be a great power and it reserves the right to reduce every Ukrainian city to rubble if they make up themselves and existential threat to Russia. And as it turns out when a country considers itself to be a great power the only opinion that counts is the country that considers itself to be a great power.
If you can do that go ahead…
I don't see any convincing evidence of that.
There's absolutely no evidence of that. What Putin is willing to do is to reduce all of their cities to rubble and kill every able-bodied potential fighting man in Ukraine until they sue for peace. If that is the case and I believe that it is in the only solution is to go to a peace settlement while a lot of the people who would otherwise be dead are still alive.
Yes there are Ukrainians here.I don't think so. Seems to me that Western nations do want Zelenskyy to keep fighting and don't want him to end the war because the west wants to defeat Russia within the borders of Ukraine. Mind you the West is not interested in doing any of the dying, that may be involved. We want to Ukrainians to do that part. The question Zelenskyy has to consider is will the West still have my back if I consider an option that slows the production of Ukrainian coffins.
We should be very clear about this. Germany declared war on the United States of America. That's why we fought Germany in World War II. We fought Japan because they attacked Pearl Harbor, which was an act of war, so Congress declared war on Japan.Are you saying we should have let Hitler take over Europe?
We didn't fight Germany because of anything that Adolf Hitler did except declare war on the United States.After all, he was not likely to admit fault, right?
This really depends on whether or not Ukraine still has access to the Black Sea somewhere. When two countries in active hostilities sit down to make peace these are the issues to get hashed out.If Russia secures access to the Black Sea, then Ukraine will become an even more impoverished landlocked country.
This has nothing to do with what is okay with me. And Russia demolishing Ukraine is what is happening now, under the policy that you were advocating. Under the policy I am advocating that would stop. And if you would like the demolition of Ukraine to start rather than continue, I would think that a change in policy would be in order.Why is it A-OK with you, to let an aggressor like Russia demolish another country with no cause other than to take its resources?
Do you think Vladimir Putin is just waiting for a letter signed by you and me to that effect and then this will all be over? If that's the case send me a draft and I'll put my signature on it immediately. I'm so glad you have this all figured out. It's a wonder that you've not been asked to be secretary of state by now.Ukrainian membership in NATO is not an existential threat to Russian
Russia said there was a red line at Georgia and Ukraine in 2008 after the Bucharest declaration. Nothing that has happened from that moment until today has done anything except reinforce that Russia was as serious as a heart attack about that conviction. Russia is also sending an extremely clear signal by moving to the highest level of nuclear alert. We need to be certain not to be as tone deaf to Russia moving to a high level of nuclear alert as we have been about Russia telling us that they are going to invade Ukraine continually for the last 14 years. Complaining that Russia is a bully after they launch their ICBMs at us is going to do us precious little good.any more than the fact that multiple other bordering nations have NATO membership, soon to be followed by Finland and Sweden.
We have started seven wars since the fall of the Soviet Union. I cannot tell that the world is a better place by virtue of the fact that we have fought those seven wars. So when I contemplate the perfection of an argument to justify the eighth war I have to ask myself, is the world going to be in a better place if the United States fights this eighth war? I come to the conclusion probably not, so why not try and think of ways to try and avoid an eighth war.Would you be OK with Russia invading those countries as "existential threats"?
No, actually not. It is true at the beginning of the war Russia attempted to take Kyiv. They clearly have moved on from that objective. It would've been an elegant solution (from their apparent perspective) if they could've collapsed the government all at once, and installed a puppet, but obviously that was not the primary objective because they moved on from that.It is clear from how this war has progressed that Putin planned to take the capital and the whole country.
Do you think that Putin does not understand that the West is trying to defeat the entire Russian army within the borders of Ukraine? You understand that, and I understand that, and neither one of us have a security clearances as high as Vladimir Putin. Obviously Vladimir Putin does not want the entire Russian army destroyed within the borders of Ukraine can we agree about that?Yes there are Ukrainians here.
And yes, we want Zelenski to keep fighting with our help with weapons and not allow Russia to take over any part of Ukraine.
If the west sends troops, that would be a declaration of war and lead to further escalation outside Ukraine's borders. This war should be contained.
I have been saying all alone Russia will not accept Ukraine and NATO membership but it bounces off their heads. It is not that complicated and it is obvious this thing could be solved without extension which increases the chances for WW3. Yet the US is now sending 40 bil or our dollars earmarked for Ukraine and who knows where that money will go of how many pockets, including Americans, that cash will end up in. There is always fraud in them type of spending and esp when it involves Democrats. Ukraine has been preparing and planning for war and now they got it in spades and we are supposed to get out the crying towels for these ancient Euro blood feuds where peace is just a prep for war or war by other means.
Does anyone agree that it would be better not to reduce Ukraine to rubble and kill more people, even if it comes at the expense of fighting this lovely war?
I'm sure when that 40 billion arrives that some Ukrainian oligarch will have a message into Hunter Biden's office with some kind of proposal or other. This $40 billion is the most foolish spending I have ever seen in my life.I have been saying all alone Russia will not accept Ukraine and NATO membership but it bounces off their heads. It is not that complicated and it is obvious this thing could be solved without extension which increases the chances for WW3. Yet the US is now sending 40 bil or our dollars earmarked for Ukraine and who knows where that money will go of how many pockets, including Americans, that cash will end up in. There is always fraud in them type of spending and esp when it involves Democrats. Ukraine has been preparing and planning for war and now they got it in spades and we are supposed to get out the crying towels for these ancient Euro blood feuds where peace is just a prep for war or war by other means.
The Vietnam war, the Afghan war, and the Iraq war each cost the United States around $1 trillion.This $40 billion is the most foolish spending I have ever seen in my life.
That's a neat factoid. I have no real reason to doubt it, but I'm now curious about the specifics. Thanks for giving me something to Google...The Vietnam war, the Afghan war, and the Iraq war each cost the United States around $1 trillion.
I came across that claim a week or two ago. I just did some google searches to confirm, and it looks like the cost of Iraq and Afghanistan were more like $2 trillion each.That's a neat factoid. I have no real reason to doubt it, but I'm now curious about the specifics. Thanks for giving me something to Google...
Which of those would you re-fight if we could call do overs?The Vietnam war, the Afghan war, and the Iraq war each cost the United States around $1 trillion.
They will kill Putin before there is a nuclear launch....book it.So we're not gonna stop until we have our knee in between Putin's shoulder blades and we're rubbing our knuckles on his head? What happens if he doesn't admit fault even then? The concern is that sometime before that happens, he may just launch a nuclear strike.
It seems reasonable to conclude that Russia is going to secure for itself access to the Black Sea even if that means commandeering Ukrainian territory to do so. That's not exactly the same thing as absorbing the entire country of Ukraine and Russia. Maybe Russia rightly recognizes that absorbing Ukraine would be a little bit like swallowing a porcupine.
And Russia considers itself to be a great power and it reserves the right to reduce every Ukrainian city to rubble if they make up themselves and existential threat to Russia. And as it turns out when a country considers itself to be a great power the only opinion that counts is the country that considers itself to be a great power.
If you can do that go ahead…
I don't see any convincing evidence of that.
There's absolutely no evidence of that. What Putin is willing to do is to reduce all of their cities to rubble and kill every able-bodied potential fighting man in Ukraine until they sue for peace. If that is the case and I believe that it is in the only solution is to go to a peace settlement while a lot of the people who would otherwise be dead are still alive.
Joey will eat ice cream when he authorizes the drone strike....count on it!They will kill Putin before there is a nuclear launch....book it.