Paul was the last to become an apostle, so why do some Pentecostal ministers use the title?

[tbeachhead]

More yada, yada, yada. Paul thought it important for the Corinthians to write 2 Cor 12:12. Still waiting for Mickey's proof. Do you also claim to be an apostle as Mickey does? If so, I will ask you for your evidence as Paul described in 2 Cor 12:12.
If not, I really don't have anything else to say to you.

And I will tell you that you have no authority to put me to a test...and only arrogance would suggest that you do.

When you have the list of the credentials of all the pastors in your city, and have checked them each against the criteria you are enforcing, your own credibility as a judge whom God has called and commissioned to police the offices of the church whom He alone has authority to appoint, I'll credit your credibility.

Until then, your posts are nothing but yada yada yada and false bravado.

 

[Mik]

So you think a secular article is going to discuss God?

LOL. As expected.

So here is where you just roped yourself in a corner. You are inconsistent in your argument. You said there are no more Apostles yet claim Paul gave the criteria for a "genuine" Apostle. Well which is it? Is Paul dumb or no Spiritually discerning? Are you saying that the last Apostle didn't know he was the last? If he didn't, how do you?

Comprehension is apparently not your strong suit.

That's funny. I know I am. I also have almost verbatim pegged you. I told Beachie what you were going to say and I have to say, you and other unbelievers are simple and have nothing. Every time I give evidence, you say that it isn't enough.

LOL. You gave NO evidence. I'm still waiting. 2 Cor 12:12.

Then because you said that it isn't, you claim your victory.

It isn't. He wasn't dead. You raised no one from the dead.

All the while, those of us who walk in the truth are rolling our eyes.

LOL. OK.

Bless your heart, there is nothing you can do to sway me to your unbelief.

You have shown no proof to 'sway' my unbelief in YOU.

I know that I know that I know.

Unfortunately, no one else knows. Claims are easy to make. Proof? That's another ballgame.

You cannot convince someone who is doing the work and seen it, had the Lord call them, or anything like so, not believe.

Still waiting Mr. apostle. 2 Cor 12:12.

We KNOW. You live theory,

No. I live by the Word of God. You don't 2 Cor 12:12.

and your selective unbelief,

Yep. I select to NOT BELIEVE YOU. 2 Cor 12:12.

while we believe and see God move.

2 Cor 12:12.

Bless.

Lol. More yada, yada, yada. Ok. so 2 Cor 12:12 doesn't apply to you. Exactly what I expected. So you admit you are not an Apostle called by Christ. You are a self-proclaimed apostle. It is easy to make claims, it's another to back them up.

 

[Mik]

And I will tell you that you have no authority to put me to a test...and only arrogance would suggest that you do.

Absolutely I do. 'You will know them by their fruits'

When you have the list of the credentials of all the pastors in your city, and have checked them each against the criteria you are enforcing, your own credibility as a judge whom God has called and commissioned to police the offices of the church whom He alone has authority to appoint, I'll credit your credibility.

Just checking the credentials of today's self-proclaimed apostles. 2 Cor 12:12.

Until then, your posts are nothing but yada yada yada and false bravado.

LOL. Bravado? I made no claims of being a self-proclaimed apostle. Mickey did. Just asking for proof of God's requirements. 2 Cor 12:12. Still waiting.

 

[Mikey1967]

LOL. As expected.

Comprehension is apparently not your strong suit.

LOL. You gave NO evidence. I'm still waiting. 2 Cor 12:12.

It isn't. He wasn't dead. You raised no one from the dead.

LOL. OK.

You have shown no proof to 'sway' my unbelief in YOU.

Unfortunately, no one else knows. Claims are easy to make. Proof? That's another ballgame.

Still waiting Mr. apostle. 2 Cor 12:12.

No. I live by the Word of God. You don't 2 Cor 12:12.

Yep. I select to NOT BELIEVE YOU. 2 Cor 12:12.

2 Cor 12:12.

Lol. More yada, yada, yada. Ok. so 2 Cor 12:12 doesn't apply to you. Exactly what I expected. So you admit you are not an Apostle called by Christ. You are a self-proclaimed apostle. It is easy to make claims, it's another to back them up.

Meaningless. I thank Jesus that His call has no bearing on unbelievers approval. Lol

 

[Mik]

Meaningless. I thank Jesus that His call has no bearing on unbelievers approval. Lol

Did you just call me an unbeliever? SMH Nice. Because I asked you to prove your 'apostle' credentials by Paul's 2 Cor 12:12 standard? Of course. LOl. That is really telling. Hope the lurkers pick up on it. OK. Expected. 2 Cor 12:12
Enjoy your day.

 

[RiJoRi]

2Co 12:12 [BSB] The true marks of an apostle—signs, wonders, and miracles—were performed among you with great perseverance.

Yet there are also warnings:
Matt 24:24 [BSB] For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.

And Jesus commended the church of Ephesus:
Rev 2:2 [BSB] I know your deeds, your labor, and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate those who are evil, and you have tested and exposed as liars those who falsely claim to be apostles.

So, how do we test (1The 5:21) these "super apostles"? Just prior to this, Paul wrote:
2Co 11:4-5 [BSB] For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily. I consider myself in no way inferior to those “super-apostles.”

So, these “super-apostles” proclaim:
• Another Jesus,
• A different spirit,
• A different gospel.

… and this harkens back to Deuteronomy:
Deu 18:21-22 [BSB] You may ask in your heart, “How can we recognize a message that the LORD has not spoken?” When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

But that was not enough, because God also says:
Deu 13:1-3 [BSB] If a prophet or dreamer of dreams arises among you and proclaims a sign or wonder to you, and if the sign or wonder he has spoken to you comes about, but he says, “Let us follow other gods (which you have not known) and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. For the LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

It would appear that the "true marks of an apostle" are fine, but the apostle's message must be tested against what God has said in His written word.

 

[RiJoRi]

Well said.

This is why I have had fun with this guy. He doesn't get it. All BELIEVERS will cast out devils, heal the sick, and raise the dead. Being a believer is the requirement or you won't see it. Being a believer is not a title given to someone who agrees who Jesus is or said a prayer. There are plenty of people who profess they are of Christ but do not believe, thus they are unbelievers. When Paul said he was going to see these super apostle's power, it was not because an apostle has some power outside of other believers. Paul was saying that an Apostle WILL be exhibiting signs, wonders and miracles. Professing Christians may or may not walk in this even though all can. It is based on if they believe. But a true Apostle WILL be walking in this. The message I preach is Christ and I challenge anyone to find different. That is why this guy's arguments show his ignorance and his unbelief. Thank you for a very substantial post.

Thanks, but I see Mik erring on the side of caution. After all, it was the Corinthian church with all its spiritual gifts that were accepting these "super-apostles" and their other Christ/spirit /gospel. ? So, there must be a degree of discernment also. But over it all must be a covering of love – the "even better way" as Paul wrote. (1Cor 12:29-13:3)

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FWIW, I matured spiritually in an indy Pentecostal church. But when their doctrine went off (kenosis heresy), my wife and I had leave. ?

 

[Mikey1967]

Thanks, but I see Mik erring on the side of caution. After all, it was the Corinthian church with all its spiritual gifts that were accepting these "super-apostles" and their other Christ/spirit /gospel. ? So, there must be a degree of discernment also. But over it all must be a covering of love – the "even better way" as Paul wrote. (1Cor 12:29-13:3)

———————————————————
FWIW, I matured spiritually in an indy Pentecostal church. But when their doctrine went off (kenosis heresy), my wife and I had leave. ?

I understand that. However, if I recall, he stated there were no more Apostles, that Paul was the last. That is scripturally incorrect.

I too do not adhere to all the titles. I have always believed that if people don't know your calling from what you do, then you are a fraud with a fancy title. When the Lord spoke to me and called me, it was not even on the radar. I was simply in group prayer. Funny thing is that even today it is not something I give thought to. I just obey Him and that seems to equate to that calling.

 

[tbeachhead]

Absolutely I do. 'You will know them by their fruits'

You do realize that you're asking me to characterize my fruits for you SO THAT you can justify your ignorance in judgement, right?

You will not know anyone by conjecture on the other side of an electronic screen. I've taught for forty years...what does that tell you of my fruit? What judgment do you think of yours will be more than meaningless, and an exercise in arrogance?

We're watching you glibly judge Mikey's fruit. How do you think you are doing? I'm pretty sure you're giving yourself an excellent grade.

Just checking the credentials of today's self-proclaimed apostles. 2 Cor 12:12.

Again...how.

How are you going to see the scars? The shipwrecks? The stonings? How are you going to assess the signs and the miracles you do not even believe in?

LOL. Bravado? I made no claims of being a self-proclaimed apostle. Mickey did. Just asking for proof of God's requirements. 2 Cor 12:12. Still waiting.

You make claims as a self-obsessed judge of others, Mik. You believe yourself the knight appointed by self to take down apostles...because you teach that they are not for today, contrary to the scriptures.

Why would Paul post the criteria for apostles, if there are not supposed to be any? Why not just say, "As the last of the apostles, I declare, there are no more apostles." Why would he say God appointed apostles for the perfection of the saints for the work of the ministry, if there are no apostles?

 

[tbeachhead]

Thanks, but I see Mik erring on the side of caution. After all, it was the Corinthian church with all its spiritual gifts that were accepting these "super-apostles" and their other Christ/spirit /gospel. ? So, there must be a degree of discernment also. But over it all must be a covering of love – the "even better way" as Paul wrote. (1Cor 12:29-13:3)

———————————————————
FWIW, I matured spiritually in an indy Pentecostal church. But when their doctrine went off (kenosis heresy), my wife and I had leave. ?

It wasn't just the Corinthian church. Read what Paul told his Ephesian friends when he left them for the last time in Acts 20...where there is real manifestation, count on counterfeit in every possible form, from a MacArthur who will denigrate anyone that doesn't channel his false doctrine, to the showboat charlatan who will fill tents and gather secretaries.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

It's nothing but a "Title" like Pastor, Cardinal, or Pope. It means nothing.

The most relevant issue is abolition of the priesthood. All the saints can approach the throne of Christ without a middleman.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The most relevant issue is abolition of the priesthood. All the saints can approach the throne of Christ without a middleman.

All Christians are "Preists" (1 Pet 2:9). The significance of Melchizedek was that it established the existence of a GREATER PRIESTHOOD than that of Levi.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Paul was the last to become an apostle, so why do some Pentecostal ministers use the title?

That's just an assumption on your (Your denomination's) part. There are still apostles, as witnessed by the"Mature Church" in Ephesians 4:9, which isn't even on the radar - yet.

 

[TrvmpleVnSnvkes]

Did you just call me an unbeliever? SMH Nice. Because I asked you to prove your 'apostle' credentials by Paul's 2 Cor 12:12 standard? Of course. LOl. That is really telling. Hope the lurkers pick up on it. OK. Expected. 2 Cor 12:12
Enjoy your day.

Pentecostalists think that salvation is based on belief in them and their delusions of grandeur, rather than Christ. I’ve studied this manmade religious movement extensively and have not come across a single scripturally literate person within it. Nor a single one of them with a biblical conversion/rebirth. Or knowledge of the biblical gospel to eternal life. Their false gospel revolves around doing jibberish, wallowing around on the floor, belief in false signs and lying wonders, and being possessed by the demonic entity known as the divine feminine..which is the kundalini spirit in New Age/Eastern Mysticism aka ‘shekhinah’ in kaballah and other antichrist forms of ancient jewish mysticism. This is the satanic force which causes the pentecostalists to wallow on the ground and make bizarre animal noises, shake uncontrollably, convulse on the floor, do jibberish, pretend to be drunk and laugh at nothing, pretend that glitter and chicken feathers are coming down from angels in heaven into their religious building, and all that other weird unbiblical stuff they crave.

Covert narcissism is the norm in the pentecostalist religion, which is simply a worldly term for wolf in a sheep suit. This manmade religious movement is about exhalation of self, Christ must decrease, so that the pentecostalists can increase. There is no doubt that if Christ returned today and commanded them to repent of doing jibberish and other false signs and lying wonders, they would become angry at Him, deny, curse, and blaspheme Him. For pentecostalists it’s all about feeling spiritually superior. Extreme examples are the NAR heretics who believe they can resurrect the dead. They glory in their shame, Philippians 3:18-19.

Whenever they call you an ‘unbeliever’ that really means they demand that you believe in them for salvation, not Christ. One of the pentecostalist leaders, Kenny Copeland teaches this doctrine that they are gods, which is a New Age pagan doctrine, and pentecostalists demand that you worship them and their juju or else. You must deify them in order to be saved and adhere to their doctrines of hocus pocus and abberacadabbera.