Right and wrong

[El Cid]

Yeah, you have a pretty bad Chicken/egg issue here.

Huh? In what way?

 

[5wize]

Huh? In what way?

You claim 2 things about god’s moral character and ours that are not compatible.

1. Yes, but if the creator of us and of our universe has a moral character that exists outside our minds....
2. Because we rebelled against Him and that damaged our moral conscience...

So, if we possess our moral conscious, how can it be a moral character that exists outside our minds?

 

[El Cid]

Some people, transgenders for example, think it is morally good to have certain body parts chopped off for no objective reason. So it is just your feelings versus his feelings. Without an objective standard, how do you know which one of you is correct?

Why do you consider this a moral issue? Is tattooing or a face lift a moral issue?

Yes. It is a form of deception, like a face lift. If you get a face lift then you are trying to make people think you are younger than you actually are. And deception is a sin and immoral. And transgenderism is trying to make people think you are the opposite sex. Though I think in most cases it is a mental illness and not intentional deception.

 

[5wize]

Yes. It is a form of deception, like a face lift. If you get a face lift then you are trying to make people think you are younger than you actually are. And deception is a sin and immoral. And transgenderism is trying to make people think you are the opposite sex. Though I think in most cases it is a mental illness and not intentional deception.

This is very odd thinking. Say there’s a guy or gal that naturally looks 70 but is really 40? Would it be a deception to fix that and want to look your age so people aren’t deceived?

So makeup is a sin? If someone loses one eyebrow are they sinning to want to paint it on for symmetry or do they have to live a life of aesthetic anxiety because you think its a sin to deceive us against what was god’s will - what god naturally did?

Do you fight disease? Is that a sin? It’s unnatural to resist nature, even disease, right?

 

[Temujin]

Yes. It is a form of deception, like a face lift. If you get a face lift then you are trying to make people think you are younger than you actually are. And deception is a sin and immoral. And transgenderism is trying to make people think you are the opposite sex. Though I think in most cases it is a mental illness and not intentional deception.

I think that you are mistaken. People who have face lifts or a tattoo, do so for their own self image, not to deceive others. How is a tattoo deceptive, incidentally? If you think that a drag queen is trying to deceive people about their sex, you obviously have never met one. There's no deception around transgender. Trans people are completely open about who they are and the journey they have been on. It's those who are so shallow that they judge someone by their appearance who are at fault. Trans people don't want to succeed at deception. They want to succeed at acceptance. There's no moral fault there.

 

[BMS]

See how Temujin immediately misrepresents the question with his reply. The point was transgenderism demands people are deceived, whereas Temujin changed it to just drag queens.
Temujin doesnt realise that trans demands people lie for the acceptance.
Bad luck Temujin, aint gonna lie for you

 

[BMS]

I think that you are mistaken. People who have face lifts or a tattoo, do so for their own self image, not to deceive others. How is a tattoo deceptive, incidentally? If you think that a drag queen is trying to deceive people about their sex, you obviously have never met one. There's no deception around transgender. Trans people are completely open about who they are and the journey they have been on. It's those who are so shallow that they judge someone by their appearance who are at fault. Trans people don't want to succeed at deception. They want to succeed at acceptance. There's no moral fault there.

Of course there is deception when demanding someone is the sex they arent.
You are in a fantasy dream world of trans ideology.

 

[bigthinker]

See how Temujin immediately misrepresents the question with his reply. The point was transgenderism demands people are deceived, whereas Temujin changed it to just drag queens.
Temujin doesnt realise that trans demands people lie for the acceptance.
Bad luck Temujin, aint gonna lie for you

Temujin addressed the question.
Did you not read the entire post?

 

[bigthinker]

Of course there is deception when demanding someone is the sex they arent.
You are in a fantasy dream world of trans ideology.

with regards to transgender, deception is the issue?
That seems like a profoundly self-absorbed perspective.
How would you feel about it if you didn't know a particular person was transgender?

 

[El Cid]

Because otherwise your morality is just based on feelings, ie subjective. Also, as our creator God knows what is best for us.

Some people, transgenders for example, think it is morally good to have certain body parts chopped off for no objective reason. So it is just your feelings versus his feelings. Without an objective standard, how do you know which one of you is correct?

I asked “Would it be an objectively good or bad human outcome to have one’s arm chopped off for no reason whatsoever?” Don’t run to the fringes of potential mental sickness or cultural body modifications. Stay with normal healthy minds as you would perceive god creating them.

So you think transgenders are mentally ill? Well that is one thing we agree on. But the problem is that without God you dont really know what normal is.

Let me give you some guide-rails. Think of your mother or your father. I’m assuming a couple of normal folk like mine. Would it be (have been?) an objectively good or bad human outcome to have one of their arms chopped off for no reason whatsoever?”

Again as an atheist, you dont really know what normal is without God the one who created us defining it. What is normal just becomes what is your personal preference. So if someone says that cutting off a body part is good for them, you cannot really condemn it or say it is wrong.

 

[5wize]

So you think transgenders are mentally ill? Well that is one thing we agree on. But the problem is that without God you dont really know what normal is.

Again as an atheist, you dont really know what normal is without God the one who created us defining it. What is normal just becomes what is your personal preference. So if someone says that cutting off a body part is good for them, you cannot really condemn it or say it is wrong.

Your evasion betrays the weakness in you philosophy. If someone says that cutting off a body part is good for them then there is a reason it is good for them and you are just refusing to accept human norms that 99.999999% of people want to preserve their arms. You are (not to skillfully) evading this truth because you sense the arm bar that you know is coming. That arm bar being that there are objective truths about our human condition that do not require anything more than our common human experiences to declare them good, or bad, or normal, or abnormal... no gods need apply.

 

[bigthinker]

So you think transgenders are mentally ill? Well that is one thing we agree on. But the problem is that without God you dont really know what normal is

I would say that as a believer, you don't to really know what normal is. You have fantasy

Again as an atheist, you dont really know what normal is without God the one who created us defining it.

Fortunately, God has YOU to speak for him. And that tells us all we need to know. .

What is normal just becomes what is your personal preference.

The same as you, we just "prefer" different things.
God is YOUR personal preference, atheists preference normal, factual reality.