Romans 6

[Merton]

You are still putting what a person does as a help with Christ for eternal salvation. It is not what you do but what Christ did. And as far as believing, it is with the faith given to us by God's grace which we are able to believe.

OK, so what if I said to you what you are saying to me, and said you were clearly adding to God's work because you believe that you need to believe?
What if I said that saying that you believe because it is only by God's grace that you believe...does not change my view that you are adding to God's work. Because you are still putting what a person does as a necessary part that YOU have to do.
What you should be saying is that Christ did it all already, as proven by your not needing to even believe it.

Just apply your belief about faith being a grace to another fruit of the Spirit (love as a grace), and you might be able to see how I view the deeds that flow from this grace of love.

One can't muster up saving Faith.

Neither can you muster up love, with which to do loving/good/righteous deeds.
You need to first have love in you, as a grace/gift of the Spirit, in order to do a loving deed. There is no other way.

Salvation is all of God and none of man.

The Early Church Father summary is that it is 100% God...and 100% man. Because while your believing is itself a gift from God (so 100% God), you can also reject this gift and choose not to believe (100% man).
As Paul said to the Galatians 2:21, "I do not set aside/nullify the grace of God..."

Works are a fruit of Faith and salvation. Not a cause.

Yes. More precisely, they are the fruit of the other grace that comes with faith and hope - the grace of love.
Faith does not produce good works on its own. Faith expresses itself in believing.
But the gift of faith is associated with the gift of love (if it is a living faith), and the love expresses itself in good works.

We are imputed, Romans 4, with righteousness, God's own righteousness, as per 2 Cor. 5: 21.

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

We have already established on this OP that the good deeds of the reborn child of God are the righteousness of God. They are literally God's deeds. His righteousness. Not of our own making without Him, but as graced by Him to do so.

So how much more righteousness does one need?

Good question, if you have God working in you, gracing you with the love that enables and moves you to be kind and loving to others, what more do you need? Why do you need more righteousness than this?

 

[bluedog1us]

OK, so what if I said to you what you are saying to me, and said you were clearly adding to God's work because you believe that you need to believe?
What if I said that saying that you believe because it is only by God's grace that you believe...does not change my view that you are adding to God's work. Because you are still putting what a person does as a necessary part that YOU have to do.
What you should be saying is that Christ did it all already, as proven by your not needing to even believe it.

Just apply your belief about faith being a grace to another fruit of the Spirit (love as a grace), and you might be able to see how I view the deeds that flow from this grace of love.

Neither can you muster up love, with which to do loving/good/righteous deeds.
You need to first have love in you, as a grace/gift of the Spirit, in order to do a loving deed. There is no other way.

The Early Church Father summary is that it is 100% God...and 100% man. Because while your believing is itself a gift from God (so 100% God), you can also reject this gift and choose not to believe (100% man).
As Paul said to the Galatians 2:21, "I do not set aside/nullify the grace of God..."

Yes. More precisely, they are the fruit of the other grace that comes with faith and hope - the grace of love.
Faith does not produce good works on its own. Faith expresses itself in believing.
But the gift of faith is associated with the gift of love (if it is a living faith), and the love expresses itself in good works.

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

We have already established on this OP that the good deeds of the reborn child of God are the righteousness of God. They are literally God's deeds. His righteousness. Not of our own making without Him, but as graced by Him to do so.

Good question, if you have God working in you, gracing you with the love that enables and moves you to be kind and loving to others, what more do you need? Why do you need more righteousness than this?

Great. So now you, as a Catholic, don't need to keep or do the sacrements, be subject to the pope, be a member of the rcc, be baptized, auricular confession, penance, etc. in order to be saved. If you can't answer yes to the above, you deny the sufficiency of Christ, and are working for your salvation. The belief one must do is a direct result of the faith God has given to every believer. That is the only way one will ever believe. Without God given faith one will never trust Jesus' atoning work on the cross for salvation. And trusting on what Jesus did is believing on Jesus and resting on what HE did. That is being born again. And no amount of deeds done in the flesh, good or bad, will ever be one iota oof the cause of salvation. Keeping any of the law, or relying on one's deeds is what Paul says is nullifying grace. And grace is what God does, works are what man does! There is absolutely nothing man can do to be born again as per John 3 to Nicodemus.

 

[A new day]

Mankind in general speaking, relishes in seeing others who are in the wrong come to them crying and sobbing their hearts out begging for forgiveness. The person who was offended, wants revenge and doesn't want to see the guilty party get off the hook so easy. And ya know something? the offended party goes on a power trip of having something over the offender.

But God is NOT like mankind. Mankind is unforgiving, but God is saying to us.... that even though we are sinful, He willing to wipe the slate clean and allow us to start over. He is letting the guilty go free, because He wants to. Our only part is to believe Him and trust Him to save us.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’

Ezekiel 33:12
Therefore, son of man, say to your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression; neither will the wickedness of the wicked man cause him to stumble on the day he turns from his wickedness. Nor will the righteous man be able to survive by his righteousness on the day he sins

verse 12, tells us, that what we deem to be righteous acts, even the most brilliant will not deliver us from our trangsressions. There is absolutely nothing we can do to help God to save us from His judgment and wrath. No amount of physical deeds, or religious rites performed will contribute to our salvation. We are totally powerless to save ourselves.

 

[Stella1000]

Mankind in general speaking, relishes in seeing others who are in the wrong come to them crying and sobbing their hearts out begging for forgiveness. The person who was offended, wants revenge and doesn't want to see the guilty party get off the hook so easy. And ya know something? the offended party goes on a power trip of having something over the offender.

But God is NOT like mankind. Mankind is unforgiving, but God is saying to us.... that even though we are sinful, He willing to wipe the slate clean and allow us to start over. He is letting the guilty go free, because He wants to. Our only part is to believe Him and trust Him to save us.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’

Ezekiel 33:12
Therefore, son of man, say to your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression; neither will the wickedness of the wicked man cause him to stumble on the day he turns from his wickedness. Nor will the righteous man be able to survive by his righteousness on the day he sins

verse 12, tells us, that what we deem to be righteous acts, even the most brilliant will not deliver us from our trangsressions. There is absolutely nothing we can do to help God to save us from His judgment and wrath. No amount of physical deeds, or religious rites performed will contribute to our salvation. We are totally powerless to save ourselves.

For that to be consistent, you would not be here berating Catholic because they aren't doing faith right. You would be sending that petition to God to change us. The inconsistency is glaring to a truly seeking soul.

 

[balshan]

For that to be consistent, you would not be here berating Catholic because they aren't doing faith right. You would be sending that petition to God to change us. The inconsistency is glaring to a truly seeking soul.

But RCs keep saying the RCC is the same as over there.

 

[A new day]

For that to be consistent, you would not be here berating Catholic because they aren't doing faith right. You would be sending that petition to God to change us. The inconsistency is glaring to a truly seeking soul.

First, God is NOT a genie in the bottle, that can be bent to our will, to force you to change.

And you have now posted a false accusation, No where in my post did I quote you, or any other rc, on here. And neither did I say anything about rc's or the rcc in the post. You read into the post, what is NOT there.

The words "mankind in general" means EVERYBODY on earth. you and your rcc was NOT singled out in the post. It is you who is looking to cause a fight, when you have no reason to. NONE.

 

[Stella1000]

I should have highlighted this from your post as what I was responding to.

We are totally powerless to save ourselves.

to that I responded with "For that to be consistent, you would not be here berating Catholic because they aren't doing faith right. You would be sending that petition to God to change us. The inconsistency is glaring to a truly seeking soul."

The 'you' being nonCC's here and an example would be from post #22 "What Roman Catholics need to have is a simple faith in the fact that establishing us in Christ, day by day, is God's work"

We are letting God guide us and we believe He established teachers, leaders, elders, prophets, pastors through which the Holy Spirit builds up the community of Christians. If we truly believe that, why would you try and get us to change if you believe that only God can change us?

 

[Stella1000]

Excellent response! Catholics need to "let go and let God"!

Here is another example. If only God can change us who you believe aren't faithful, why don't you let go and let God?

 

[bluedog1us]

Here is another example. If only God can change us who you believe aren't faithful, why don't you let go and let God?

Because He chooses to use the message of the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation. But as long as someone denies the gospel message, that person will never be saved. Trying to play "religion" by trusting works or rituals for salvation is futile. One has to trust Christ and Him ONLY for salvation. The gospel in Christ calling His sheep. And His sheep will follow Him according to what He demands, and that is resting on what He did on the cross. Anything other that is a futile attempt to add to or subtract from the gospel and is a waste of time and effort. Lydia was a worshiper of God, or so she thought. Until God opened her heart to understand the gospel, She really had no hope of salvation. Acts 16. God does it all, man can do nothing to save himself. One MUST be born again, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Nothing else provides salvation. And that is what is wrong with the rcc, it NEVER preaches or teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[A new day]

We are letting God guide us and we believe He established teachers, leaders, elders, prophets, pastors through which the Holy Spirit builds up the community of Christians. If we truly believe that, why would you try and get us to change if you believe that only God can change us?

As I previously said, God is NOT a genie in the bottle, that can be bent to obey the human will, to force you to change. God is holding out a free gift. ALL Mankind, has two choices, we, meaning ALL humans, can either accept the free gift or reject it. The choice is ours, meaning ALL humans. No one can force this on you or anyone else. No one can believe and trust God for you. Neither does God snap a divine finger and force you to believe and trust Him. We can not worship God vicariously through other humans.

You claim you to walk and talk with God, if so, then you would be agreeing with those who actually do; and not get all worked up and defensive when something posted hits close to home. What you want is for us non-rc's to tell you what you want to hear, instead of what is truth.

Rc's try so hard to get right with God by keeping his laws, and by trying to be "good enough" without Him, and never succeed. Why? because rc's are depending upon this instead of doing what God has said He wants us to do. And that is... depend upon Him alone. We humans will come to God, on HIS terms, or we don't come to Him at all.

God is a gentleman, He will not twist your arm and make you change, but you can allow Him to change you.

 

[leonard03782]

It's not my intent to be toxic, and I'm sorry if I come across that way. I am not combatting you. I am looking for areas of agreement, such as the need for rebirth, being a new creation, and in this OP now whether what a reborn person does is righteous. I'd like to know if we actually agree, and if not then exactly where.

Speaking For myself, there is not one word that can be found in the ccc or rc theology. that I could come to an agreement with you. Everything that the rcc teaches are lies or have been corrupted by lies.

 

[leonard03782]

You say this as if this is a profound point in favor of Roman Catholic doctrine.

RCism is awash in leavening good loaves with just a little yeast. Proposing some truth is never profundity.

Rc's think that doing good works will wash the stink off of them when judgement day comes around.

 

[Stella1000]

Rc's think that doing good works will wash the stink off of them when judgement day comes around.

No, this is why Catholics do good works.

1 John 3 18 Little children, let us love not in word or speech but in deed and truth. 19 And by this we will know that we are from the truth and will reassure our hearts before him 20 whenever our hearts condemn us, for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have boldness before God, 22 and we receive from him whatever we ask, because we obey his commandments and do what pleases him.

23 And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 All who obey his commandments abide in him, and he abides in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit that he has given us.

 

[balshan]

No, this is why Catholics do good works.

1 John 3 18 Little children, let us love not in word or speech but in deed and truth. 19 And by this we will know that we are from the truth and will reassure our hearts before him 20 whenever our hearts condemn us, for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have boldness before God, 22 and we receive from him whatever we ask, because we obey his commandments and do what pleases him.

23 And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 All who obey his commandments abide in him, and he abides in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit that he has given us.

The good works do not balance at the bad works. Good works do not show you are obeying God. Atheist also do what RCs call good works except the sacraments, and that does not show they are saved. A good tree does not produce bad fruit.

 

[Merton]

Great. So now you, as a Catholic, don't need to keep or do the sacrements, be subject to the pope, be a member of the rcc, be baptized, auricular confession, penance, etc. in order to be saved. If you can't answer yes to the above, you deny the sufficiency of Christ, and are working for your salvation.

None of the things you listed are absolute necessities in order to be born again or to be saved from wrath on the last day.
The only, single necessity is to be reborn and to have remained spiritually alive when you come to the last judgment.
All you need next is to know the definition of spiritual life - it is God's life.
And the teaching on how you can receive this life - only from Christ, when you become a member in his body
And then the teaching on how Christ passes this life to you - by causing the Spirit to indwell you
Then you need to know how you feel God's life when it is in you - you feel it as faith, hope and love
And then you need to know what a person does who is alive with this life - they believe, they hope, and they do loving deeds
And then you need to know what happens if they nullify this life in them - then they can spiritually die and fall from grace
But you can also know what happens if they live by the Spirit, or if after falling they return to the Spirit - they arrive to the last judgment as a living child of God, and therefore as co-heirs to the inheritance, which is to remain in this life by which they have been living, only now for eternity

In Catholic theology, this is known as being reborn by sanctifying grace, which is a participation in God's own life, and the need to endure so as to abide in this sanctifying grace at the end of the race.
So:
If a person is reborn (they now have faith, hope and love), but they have not been baptized with water, do they enter heaven?
Yes. Because they are reborn and are spiritually alive. They have sanctifying grace/God's life in them.

If a person is reborn but do not have evidence of good fruit/good works, can they enter heaven?
Yes. Because they are reborn and are spiritually alive. They have died in sanctifying grace/God's life in them.
Though it is arguable whether one can ever find a good tree that has not produced a single good fruit. Nevertheless, it is a good, living tree and will produce good fruit in time. It has sanctifying grace/life in it.

If a person is reborn, believes for a while, produces good deeds, but then stops believing and stops serving the Spirit and Christ, to the degree that they cut themselves off fully from Christ (like the Galatians who had received the Spirit through faith but now were getting circumcised), can they enter heaven on account of the good works they did while in the Spirit?
No. Because although once alive, they did not endure but are dead. Their past good works cannot override the fact that they are dead trees now.
A dead tree that still has some good fruit on its branches is still a dead tree. The vinekeeper will remove it. The vinekeeper only keeps living trees.

If a person is reborn, has faith, hope and love from the Spirit, and continues to believe but cuts themselves off from the grace of love, can they enter heaven?
No, because they are spiritually dead. They do not have love, which is God's life in them.
They can have all the faith in the world, but without love it is nothing. They can believe, but apart from works (i.e., apart from the love that is giving rise to these good works) it is a dead faith.

The belief one must do is a direct result of the faith God has given to every believer.

The belief "one must do."
Equally the other Spirit-given graces: the hope one must have, the love one must express.

That is the only way one will ever believe.

It is also the only way one will ever hope or love.

Do you believe that only faith is God-given? Do you think that hope is ordinary hope and love is ordinary love?
I'm not sure you view the God-given love as being a different type or category of love from the love that one has without the Spirit.
To do something with genuine love, kindness or concern, for the sake of the other, without thought of return...is a love that is only God-given.

 

[Merton]

God is a gentleman, He will not twist your arm and make you change, but you can allow Him to change you.

So it's 100% God, and 100% you, like the Early Church Fathers summarized it.

 

[Merton]

Speaking For myself, there is not one word that can be found in the ccc or rc theology. that I could come to an agreement with you. Everything that the rcc teaches are lies or have been corrupted by lies.

I thought we had agreement on the need to be reborn. And that the deeds that the reborn person does in the Spirit are righteous deeds.

 

[Blessings8]

Not "questions." Your particular question.

The difference is the nuance.

So then take my question and nuance for us. Please do.

 

[A new day]

So it's 100% God, and 100% you, like the Early Church Fathers summarized it.

Post 115 of this thread, does NOT impress me at all. A lot of word salad.

Salvation is 100% from God. We humans can do nothing to earn it. Jesus said while He was still on the cross ... verbatim "It is finished!" He did it all. Rc's just can't stand the thought that God gets all the credit and glory for our salvation. There will be no bragging to God's face, about how you earned any of it. But hey, your already crowing like a rooster, bragging about how you as a rc, caused yourself to be born again. Only God can cause us to be born again.

 

[Merton]

Post 115 of this thread, does NOT impress me at all. A lot of word salad.

Here is a shortened version:

If a person is reborn, but they have not been baptized with water, do they enter heaven?
Yes.

If a person is reborn but do not have evidence of good fruit/good works, can they enter heaven?
Yes.

If a person is reborn, believes for a while, produces good deeds, but then stops believing and stops serving the Spirit and Christ, to the degree that they cut themselves off fully from Christ (like the Galatians who had received the Spirit through faith but now were getting circumcised), can they enter heaven on account of the good works?
No.

If a person is reborn, has faith, hope and love from the Spirit, and continues to believe but cuts themselves off from the grace of love, can they enter heaven?
No.

Salvation is 100% from God. We humans can do nothing to earn it.

I agree you cannot earn it. It is for us to let go and let God place faith, hope and love in us - and with these gifts, to believe, hope and love one another.