Aaron32
Well-known member
You can simply Google the text. I found it no problem. -> Link It's a moot point because it's already scriptural, nothing to argue about. Adversity cleanses us.You were wrong, IMO, and I explained why.
Ok. So @Janice Bower is quoting things without giving the source and without any comment about what her issue is with it.
Yes. You wanted to nit-pick. It's annoying. Rather take the bulk of my message and accept the obvious, you just want to play the "gotcha" game. It's childish and annoying.I wasn't responding to her. I'm responding to you. You claimed that I was "implying there was no difference between the Garden of Eden and the lone and dreary wilderness". Nothing your accusation had anything to do with Janice's statement.
If there's ALWAYS opposition, then why do we need to experience mortality? Aren't we told life is "a test"? Why the veil of forgetfulness?My post to you was that there will always be opposition, to which you started complaining about me and not the argument. I chose to ignore your complaints and address the portion that appeared to address the discussion.
God suffers? Really?Among the many things in your original response to the OP, the comment that stuck out to me the most was "in telestial glory we do suffer because of opposition in all things" as if opposition causes suffering and it probably does. I wasn't disputing your statement. I was elaborating that opposition exists in every sphere of glory regardless. There will be suffering in all the kingdoms of God. God suffers.
Do you have an official church source stating that belief? God may weep over us, but I wouldn't chalk that up to "suffering".
You mean, the quote you needed to have the source for to legitimize? This is another evidence of you jumping the gun, where you clearly demonstrate you don't understand, and yet you have all the answers of why we're wrong.But the suffering in Janice's quote is not about that kind of suffering (the kind that comes from opposition).
Yes. That suffering comes not repenting. (D&C 19:15-17) The same torment anyone feels when they feel a guilt of conscience.Those people are suffering to pay a debt that Christ would have paid for them if they had only accepted him and followed him.
Do we have to contend? Contention is of the devil. In contrast we could have an edifying discussion where we seek to understand rather than seek to condemn.I would further contend
Yes. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. We're in the telestial kingdom, we fail the test, we go back to the telestial kingdom and try again.that even in the spirit world after death, this offer was extended to them and they still rejected it. Every opportunity is extended to repent, but that does not mean they will change, and change they must or they cannot be saved. Their suffering is no different than those in mortality suffer when they've committed crimes against society. Jail is hell. If you do the crime, you have to do the time. That has nothing to do with opposition. Jesus would have paid their debt if they would repent. In the Book of Mormon, Moroni offers the kingsmen the opportunity to commit to serving the cause of freedom or die and many of them chose to die. As odd as that seems, obviously there are people who will not repent and they will have to pay for their own sins. That is the suffering they must endure, having paid their own debt, they are free to live in a telestial glory because God will forgive all sins except one. We are all eternal beings. We cannot be killed and Christ has overcome the grave. Every single person will be restored to their body regardless of how evil or good they were. Justice is served when the debt has been paid and once it's been paid, then the person can no longer be punished. That's justice.
I submit telestial glory is not a place, but a glory is "light and truth", these intelligences will continue to be retested until they've suffered so much they're willing to be open to things they might not have considered, and thus gain terrestrial glory and end the suffering. That's why endless torment isn't necessarily torment without end (see D&C 19:6)
I've never seen a person get in his own way as much you do. Just noting another instance where your claiming the Church is wrong but you are right, and you have not built the case from scripture but from your own unjustified opinion.My point was that your view of opposition as a vehicle for suffering was incorrect. I disagree with the quote, it comes from a Gospel Doctrine course (not Sunday School - it looks like a college course) that those who suffer will ever become "clean" simply because they suffered. Clean is as clean does. If they don't change/repent they will remain in their telestial state forever - that is they will dwell forever with murderers, liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers. Just because they spent a little time in hell, won't change their nature.
Not to say I disagree with your conclusion. You've actually agreed with me. I'm saying that you are right, I am right, AND the church is right.