Telestial Kingdom of Glory

You were wrong, IMO, and I explained why.

Ok. So @Janice Bower is quoting things without giving the source and without any comment about what her issue is with it.
You can simply Google the text. I found it no problem. -> Link It's a moot point because it's already scriptural, nothing to argue about. Adversity cleanses us.
I wasn't responding to her. I'm responding to you. You claimed that I was "implying there was no difference between the Garden of Eden and the lone and dreary wilderness". Nothing your accusation had anything to do with Janice's statement.
Yes. You wanted to nit-pick. It's annoying. Rather take the bulk of my message and accept the obvious, you just want to play the "gotcha" game. It's childish and annoying.
My post to you was that there will always be opposition, to which you started complaining about me and not the argument. I chose to ignore your complaints and address the portion that appeared to address the discussion.
If there's ALWAYS opposition, then why do we need to experience mortality? Aren't we told life is "a test"? Why the veil of forgetfulness?
Among the many things in your original response to the OP, the comment that stuck out to me the most was "in telestial glory we do suffer because of opposition in all things" as if opposition causes suffering and it probably does. I wasn't disputing your statement. I was elaborating that opposition exists in every sphere of glory regardless. There will be suffering in all the kingdoms of God. God suffers.
God suffers? Really?
Do you have an official church source stating that belief? God may weep over us, but I wouldn't chalk that up to "suffering".
But the suffering in Janice's quote is not about that kind of suffering (the kind that comes from opposition).
You mean, the quote you needed to have the source for to legitimize? This is another evidence of you jumping the gun, where you clearly demonstrate you don't understand, and yet you have all the answers of why we're wrong.
Those people are suffering to pay a debt that Christ would have paid for them if they had only accepted him and followed him.
Yes. That suffering comes not repenting. (D&C 19:15-17) The same torment anyone feels when they feel a guilt of conscience.
I would further contend
Do we have to contend? Contention is of the devil. In contrast we could have an edifying discussion where we seek to understand rather than seek to condemn.
that even in the spirit world after death, this offer was extended to them and they still rejected it. Every opportunity is extended to repent, but that does not mean they will change, and change they must or they cannot be saved. Their suffering is no different than those in mortality suffer when they've committed crimes against society. Jail is hell. If you do the crime, you have to do the time. That has nothing to do with opposition. Jesus would have paid their debt if they would repent. In the Book of Mormon, Moroni offers the kingsmen the opportunity to commit to serving the cause of freedom or die and many of them chose to die. As odd as that seems, obviously there are people who will not repent and they will have to pay for their own sins. That is the suffering they must endure, having paid their own debt, they are free to live in a telestial glory because God will forgive all sins except one. We are all eternal beings. We cannot be killed and Christ has overcome the grave. Every single person will be restored to their body regardless of how evil or good they were. Justice is served when the debt has been paid and once it's been paid, then the person can no longer be punished. That's justice.
Yes. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. We're in the telestial kingdom, we fail the test, we go back to the telestial kingdom and try again.
I submit telestial glory is not a place, but a glory is "light and truth", these intelligences will continue to be retested until they've suffered so much they're willing to be open to things they might not have considered, and thus gain terrestrial glory and end the suffering. That's why endless torment isn't necessarily torment without end (see D&C 19:6)
My point was that your view of opposition as a vehicle for suffering was incorrect. I disagree with the quote, it comes from a Gospel Doctrine course (not Sunday School - it looks like a college course) that those who suffer will ever become "clean" simply because they suffered. Clean is as clean does. If they don't change/repent they will remain in their telestial state forever - that is they will dwell forever with murderers, liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers. Just because they spent a little time in hell, won't change their nature.
I've never seen a person get in his own way as much you do. Just noting another instance where your claiming the Church is wrong but you are right, and you have not built the case from scripture but from your own unjustified opinion.
Not to say I disagree with your conclusion. You've actually agreed with me. I'm saying that you are right, I am right, AND the church is right.
 
I think the point to be observed here is that you don't care about the context of my statements.
I truly hate to admit it, but debating you is like fighting Dark Link in the Legend of Zelda. We're too much alike.
case in point, You don't care about the context of my statements. It had a great deal of impact on the rest of the discussion, IMO.
People have to understand what you're talking about before it can have an impact, and your only intent is to prove people wrong.
Suffering is not only the result of opposition and it in no way cleanses anyone.
In your previous post you said:
You said:
"Those people are suffering to pay a debt that Christ would have paid for them if they had only accepted him and followed him. I would further contend that even in the spirit world after death, this offer was extended to them and they still rejected it. Every opportunity is extended to repent, but that does not mean they will change, and change they must or they cannot be saved. Their suffering is no different than those in mortality suffer when they've committed crimes against society. Jail is hell. If you do the crime, you have to do the time. That has nothing to do with opposition. Jesus would have paid their debt if they would repent. In the Book of Mormon, Moroni offers the kingsmen the opportunity to commit to serving the cause of freedom or die and many of them chose to die. As odd as that seems, obviously there are people who will not repent and they will have to pay for their own sins. That is the suffering they must endure, having paid their own debt, they are free to live in a telestial glory because God will forgive all sins except one. We are all eternal beings. We cannot be killed and Christ has overcome the grave. Every single person will be restored to their body regardless of how evil or good they were. Justice is served when the debt has been paid and once it's been paid, then the person can no longer be punished. That's justice."

Thus, we always have opportunity to repent. Suffering is our choice. It ends when we truly accept Christ and are born again.
That is simply a matter of justice being served.
That's true too. We are led to Christ and exaltation throughout eternity either by the right hand, (mercy) or by the left hand.(justice) Yet, some sheep just don't want to come, eh?

Regardless, that's the way I understood it. I believe that's exactly what I said. When you see the words "I assume..." then you can be sure that I'm not accusing you of meaning something or that you said something or even that you meant it that way. Regardless of what you actually said, I'm explaining that this is the way I understood it.
And that's simply exhausting for me and narcissistic on your behalf. I'm not going to take the time to decipher what I think you understood to then try to understand what your saying. Why would you assume anyone cares about your opinion that much?
Imagine your at a Christmas party, and your having a conversation, and a person outside the conversation here's one line you said, interrupts you and starts debating you on that one line when he didn't understand the context of what you were saying? It communicates this person doesn't care at all about what's being said, he just wants attention.
I don't think that's what I'm doing at all.
Well, from a person outside your own perspective, I disagree.
I already did. But what I was hoping is that you'd explain what you meant by your statement since I obviously didn't understand it. At this point, it's not important anymore. I'm sure you wouldn't bother to take the time anyway
If that's true, why not simply ask a question, rather than say "I don't know what you're talking about, but I don't think u r correct."
A question is inviting, an insult is insulting.
No. That's not my point. It's one thing to repeat a phrase and an entirely different thing to understand the phrase and I don't think you got it.
This is just unproductive meta, highlighting, once again, I'm wrong somehow. Some may diagnose this as a superiority complex.
 
Celestial refers to "heavenly" and terrestrial refers to "earthly" and "telestial" is nowhere found in the Bible.

Joseph Smith's so called 'Inspired' version of the bible - 1 Corinthians 15:40 “Also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial, and bodies telestial; (added) but the glory of the celestial, one; and the terrestrial, another; and the telestial, (added) another.

God's Word - 1 Corinthians 15:40 “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.”

Joseph Smith coined the word “telestial” in order to prove the doctrine of three glories as taught in the Doctrine and Covenants Sec. 76. In this passage, Paul is simply comparing the difference between our earthly bodies and our heavenly bodies.


My wife was raised in the RLDS church (similar to LDS) and this information from the link above was a real eye opener for her.
 
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From what we know, there was this devil that roamed around in the garden trying to get Eve or Adam to eat from the tree in direct defiance of God's command. What does that matter? Of course, there was other opposition in the garden, most of it was mundane. We don't really need to focus on it since the important point was that Eve ate the fruit and here we are.
So you are disagreeing with me that opposition is in all glories, when I'm saying there's not, but when forced to describe it...you now say it doesn't really matter. Hmmm...go figure. Kinda like when I said, "Yes. There's opposition in all things, but that's a moot point." But somehow, I'm wrong. Let's not forget that.
The whole discussion of opposition cannot even exist without being aware that there is opposition and to be aware of it, it must exist.
Ah, so you're saying AWARENESS is key to have opposition.
Ironically, what was that that tree that sent Adam and Eve to the telestial kingdom? Ah, that's right, the tree of KNOWLEDGE of "Good" and "Evil".
I might add here that not being aware of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Adam and Eve's innocence is that they were not aware that it exists. The name of the tree "good and evil" is another example of opposition that did in fact exist or the knowledge of it existed before Adam and Eve ate the fruit of that tree.
And did they suffer from that opposition they weren't aware of? No.
You're slowly but surely simply making the point I've been making all along. I'm sure by the end of this, your going to say I was wrong the whole time and take ownership of points I've already made so that somehow I'm wrong, but you're right.
They lived in a telestial world. So, what's your point?
That after the had awareness they suffered in the telestial kingdom. But in the terrestrial kingdom there was no suffering. Challenging your claim there there's opposition and suffering everywhere, and even God suffers.
Actually, I do care. I just don't believe you see the bigger picture and I base that on your lack of understanding about the details. That's why I respond to your posts. I care very much.
Lol! You the one who's judging me of be wrong while also saying "I don't know what your talking about" and I am the one with the lack of details? Wow!
I honestly don't see it that way.
Ok. I can live with that.
That's the problem. You're not defending our religion. It looks to me like you don't see the big picture and for all my effort, it appears that you'd rather attack me than address the discussion. You're not the only one I have this issue with. I annoy a lot of people. If you don't have the details right, there's no way you can get the big picture, so I press on in hopes of gaining the small victories and maybe the big picture will come into view - and I might learn something along the way as well.
"So let it be written, so let it be done." - Pharaoh of Egypt
Shadow Link, my friend, Shadow Link.
 
Because as long as there is choice, there must be things to choose between. Sometimes the options available are not opposites, but the fact that there will always be choice means that there will always be a situation where opposites are the choice. I don't think people who live with God will lose that freedom of choice.
Ok, well. I've already acknowledged opposition in all things. And yes, it's because we have agency. It goes without saying. Yay! We agree. Move on.
However, we suffer not only because of our choices. Sometimes we suffer because of the choices that others make.
This is where we choose to suffer or not.
I have a bipolar child. Trust me, I suffer from his choices in more ways than one. But when I have the Spirit with me, that burden is made light. (See Mosiah 24:14) Maybe thats why it correlates that "long-suffering" is a fruit of the Spirit.
Regardless, it all revolves around choice.
Yes.
Celestial beings will always choose good and reject evil, but their offspring might not and when they don't, it will cause exquisite suffering which will result in choices that those celestial beings must make, while being the good or right choice, it will not feel like it.
True. It's sad to see so many people think they have to leave the church because their child comes out gay. Still, suffering is optional.

Matt 10:
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me

We don't need Satan to be presented with choices of good or evil.
Also true. But Satan is the one that generally torments us.
And again, speaking of what is to come:
1 Ne 22:26 "And because of the righteousness of his people, Satan has no power;"

In light of verses 1 Ne 22:16-17, specifically the phrase: "he will preserve the righteous by his power", it really does say a lot about the atonement, the doctrine of Christ, and the importance of the companionship of the Holy Ghost.
 
I don't struggle with the temptation of adultery, does that make me His equal? It is quite clear from the scriptures, however; that Jesus did struggle with temptation.
...in mortality (aka. "the telestial kingdom")
He also took upon him the sins of all men.

It never crosses mine.
That's irrelevant. The point remains. Yes, opposition exists, but we don't suffer from it.
No. I believe the opposition is always as big as it really is. My issues may not be the same as your issues, but when you face your issues, they are always big. I don't care who you are or how converted you might think you are.
"Big as it really is"
If my issues aren't your issues, then what's REAL?
Jacob 4:
13 Behold, my brethren, he that prophesieth, let him prophesy to the understanding of men; for the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls. But behold, we are not witnesses alone in these things; for God also spake them unto prophets of old.

Getting "cleansed" (ie. "Becoming converted", "releasing attachment to worldly stuff and placing God first") frees us from suffering... If we choose to release it.

Now we know why someone continues to stay in telestial glory, because they are unwilling to give up their false beliefs, because they find a reward in their suffering.

D&C 93
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

Maybe you ought to loosen you stance on how big something "really" is
If I were you, I'd stop pretending you know what goes on in Jesus' mind.
I bring up the extreme to illustrate the point.
True that doesn't mean the opposition is not there.
Wow! How many times do I need to repeat myself. That's a moot point.
It also does not mean that the temptation will go away.
We are promised it will. Ether 12:27
Those very people were tempted to break their covenant and they had very good reason to break it.
Who are you referring to?
Yea. I'm sure you don't experience any temptations of any kind. Do you walk on water yet?
Sure, I experience temptations. Just not the same as I had before. I overcame them through the Atonement, praise Jesus.
There obviously was because it ended after almost 4 generations.
Yes, when a group decided they wanted to be Lamanites. (4 Ne 1:20)
Their issue was that they thought they could walk on water. That no temptation was too big for them. Does that sound like anyone you know?
What verse are you referring to in 4th Nephi to draw that conclusion?
Acknowledging them doesn't mean I agree with them and I think you know why I keep acknowledging them.
I never said you agreed with them.
And no, I don't know why you acknowledge them, hence, that's why I ask. I have my suspicions, which I've stated, but you say I'm wrong.
Personally, I think it's just narcissism as I pointed out earlier
Perhaps it's because you can't grasp the higher concept. But that's okay. I'm willing to move on. I'm not looking for a win. I'm only looking to make my point and I'm done. If you want to argue the point, I'll be happy to stay as long as you like.
The "higher concept" being
  • that "opposition exists".
    • I've acknowledged that multiple times.
  • The "suffering is everywhere"
    • Pretty sure I've soundly defeated that point
What else?
 
I don't struggle with the temptation of adultery, does that make me His equal? It is quite clear from the scriptures, however; that Jesus did struggle with temptation.
...in mortality (aka. "the telestial kingdom")
He also took upon him the sins of all men.

It never crosses mine.
That's irrelevant. The point remains. Yes, opposition exists, but we don't suffer from it.
No. I believe the opposition is always as big as it really is. My issues may not be the same as your issues, but when you face your issues, they are always big. I don't care who you are or how converted you might think you are.
"Big as it really is"
If my issues aren't your issues, then what's REAL?
Jacob 4:
13 Behold, my brethren, he that prophesieth, let him prophesy to the understanding of men; for the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls. But behold, we are not witnesses alone in these things; for God also spake them unto prophets of old.

Getting "cleansed" (ie. "Becoming converted", "releasing attachment to worldly stuff and placing God first") frees us from suffering... If we choose to release it.

Now we know why someone continues to stay in telestial glory, because they are unwilling to give up their false beliefs, because they find a reward in their suffering.

D&C 93
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

Maybe you ought to loosen you stance on how big something "really" is
If I were you, I'd stop pretending you know what goes on in Jesus' mind.
I bring up the extreme to illustrate the point.
True that doesn't mean the opposition is not there.
Wow! How many times do I need to repeat myself. That's a moot point.
It also does not mean that the temptation will go away.
We are promised it will. Ether 12:27
Those very people were tempted to break their covenant and they had very good reason to break it.
Who are you referring to?
Yea. I'm sure you don't experience any temptations of any kind. Do you walk on water yet?
Sure, I experience temptations. Just not the same as I had before. I overcame them through the Atonement, praise Jesus.
There obviously was because it ended after almost 4 generations.
Yes, when a group decided they wanted to be Lamanites. (4 Ne 1:20)
Their issue was that they thought they could walk on water. That no temptation was too big for them. Does that sound like anyone you know?
What verse are you referring to in 4th Nephi to draw that conclusion?
Acknowledging them doesn't mean I agree with them and I think you know why I keep acknowledging them.
I never said you agreed with them.
And no, I don't know why you acknowledge them, hence, that's why I ask. I have my suspicions, which I've stated, but you say I'm wrong.
Personally, I think it's just narcissism as I pointed out earlier
Perhaps it's because you can't grasp the higher concept. But that's okay. I'm willing to move on. I'm not looking for a win. I'm only looking to make my point and I'm done. If you want to argue the point, I'll be happy to stay as long as you like.
The "higher concept" being
  • that "opposition exists".
    • I've acknowledged that multiple times.
  • The "suffering is everywhere"
    • Pretty sure I've soundly defeated that point
What else?
 
That was the same accusation of the traditional Jews to the NT apostles, as here was no president to many of the doctrines found in the NT--which aren't found anywhere in the Hebrew Bible.

Could you find repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost, taking of he gospel to the Gentiles, as a whole, etc--anywhere in the OT scriptures?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.



It was validated the same way the revelation of the NT apostles was validated--through heavenly ministration and revelation. That's what the NT revealed--and that's what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints still enjoy.

Acts 16:4-5---King James Version
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Yitoz--your church isn't established in any such way. The LDS church still is.



Would that refer to this temple?

Revelation 7:14-15---King James Version
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
You present another false and skewed analysis. Jesus expected the religious leadership during His first advent to recognize who He was because the Tanakh was full of prophecies and references to what would be expected when the promised Messiah arrived. The Jews used a micvah or or mikvah, which was a bath used for the purpose of ritual immersion in Judaism to achieve ritual purity at the conversion of gentile believers or for Jews who repented of their sins. The Qumran area had numerous micvahs for frequent ritual cleansings. You display a decided lack of knowledge of both Jewish and early church customs and practices, and you continue to take the scripture out of context, simply because you don't understand the cultural practices that were being referred to in them.

The reason that Rev 7:14-15 can't refer to mormonism is because those spoken of there are in heaven and mormon temples are not in the heavens; no, not even close. The people spoken of in those verses were martyrs whose robes were made white in the blood of the Lamb, not by some special 'secret and sacred' ordinances, and additionally, the mormon temple ordinances are not symbolic of martyrdom, nor were my white garments or green apron made white by the blood of the Lamb in there. The white stone with a new name written on it is not symbolic of the names given in the mormon temples, because a white stone was symbolic of being declared not guilty after a Roman trial. Believers are declared not guilty by the blood of Christ alone, and not for having participated in any temple ritual. People will be judged by their works, because true justice needs to weigh the actions of believers in contrast to the actions of non-believers. That means that people like Hitler, atheists and agnostics will have the same justice and accountability as a godly person like Abraham, Noah, Paul, Mary, Joseph or John would. Why else could one be judged? What is the deciding factor? Faith in God for OT saints, and faith in Christ for NT saints. The Book of Mormon relates that those who add to the Gospel of Jesus are of evil. Mormonism is an example of a religion that adds to the simplicity of the gospel of Jesus Christ and declares that faith in Christ is not enough to enter into the presence of the Father. This is why I could not remain a mormon; false gospel and false gods.
 
You present another false and skewed analysis. Jesus expected the religious leadership during His first advent to recognize who He was because the Tanakh was full of prophecies and references to what would be expected when the promised Messiah arrived. The Jews used a micvah or or mikvah, which was a bath used for the purpose of ritual immersion in Judaism to achieve ritual purity at the conversion of gentile believers or for Jews who repented of their sins. The Qumran area had numerous micvahs for frequent ritual cleansings. You display a decided lack of knowledge of both Jewish and early church customs and practices, and you continue to take the scripture out of context, simply because you don't understand the cultural practices that were being referred to in them.

What one believes about the Jewish cultural practices does not preclude the fact there is nothing in the OT about repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost, etc.--or even any mention of the name Jesus Christ.

The cultural practices of the Jews also have nothing to do with the fact these are truthful testimonies:

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 16:4-5---King James Version

4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Revelation 7:14-15---King James Version
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Those scriptures are only "out of context"--when one attempts to apply them to the theology preached here by the critics. They are just truth to the LDS.

The reason that Rev 7:14-15 can't refer to mormonism is because those spoken of there are in heaven and mormon temples are not in the heavens; no, not even close.

If it's the way of God in heaven--then it's His way on this earth. And the description given in Rev7:14-15 is a very close match to what one will find in the LDS temple.

The people spoken of in those verses were martyrs whose robes were made white in the blood of the Lamb,

Where do we find that here?

Revelation 7:14-15---King James Version
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

not by some special 'secret and sacred' ordinances,

Is that a reference to this?

Revelation 2:17---King James Version
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

The white stone with a new name written on it is not symbolic of the names given in the mormon temples, because a white stone was symbolic of being declared not guilty after a Roman trial.

Yitoz--when you can produce something other than straw men constructions--you let me know.

Believers are declared not guilty by the blood of Christ alone, and not for having participated in any temple ritual. People will be judged by their works, because true justice needs to weigh the actions of believers in contrast to the actions of non-believers. That means that people like Hitler, atheists and agnostics will have the same justice and accountability as a godly person like Abraham, Noah, Paul, Mary, Joseph or John would. Why else could one be judged? What is the deciding factor? Faith in God for OT saints, and faith in Christ for NT saints.

That only connects works and faith as integral to one another. Anathema to the theology preached here by the critics.

The Book of Mormon relates that those who add to the Gospel of Jesus are of evil.

That's the same claim the traditional Jews were making against the NT apostles--and their newly created scriptures, called the New Testament--to this very day.

Mormonism is an example of a religion that adds to the simplicity of the gospel of Jesus Christ and declares that faith in Christ is not enough to enter into the presence of the Father.

So--when you use the term "faith" there--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?
 
I suppose that you feel that if you repeat you faulty eisegesis often enough then your spin will become an accurate analysis. Joseph Goebbels used a similar tactic, in that, he also believed that if a lie was repeated often enough it would eventually be taken as truth. Since you can't convince me that what your twisting of the meanings is an accurate commentary or analysis, apparently, you must be trying to convince yourself.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Inigo Montoya

IOW; If you keep torturing the scriptures, you can make them to confess to anything.

Proper exegesis should respect the time, place, and culture to which the scripture was written. This is the fatal flaw of almost every scripture that you have attempted to insert mormonism into on this forum. The role of valid theology is to let scripture interpret scripture, IOW, the Bible is its own interpreter; through proper exegesis and by employing proper hermeneutics. These are the two major flaws displayed by mormon scholars and especially on display in most of you submit for input on this forum. Until the NT was compiled in the late 4th century, the scripture used and taught from by the apostles was the OT LXX version. The primitive church operated using those scriptures and by carefully handed down traditions (e.g. 1 Tim 6:20 & 2 Thes 2:15) taught to them by the apostles. What I've witnessed as being presented by the numerous mormon apologists on this forum are attempts to bend, fold, spindle and otherwise mutilate the scriptures so that they can fit in a mormon cubbyhole. The dishonesty of that tactic is obvious and palpable How is that tactic any different from what the JWs are attempting to do with their scriptures (green dragon)? Same basic tactic The fact that remains and is easy for any honest person to see is that the gods of mormonism are not the same as the Godhead presented on the bible as a whole. Like Jonah, I was in the belly of the dark and nasty beast called mormonism, and like Jonah, God delivered me from the belly of that beast. Believe as you wish to believe, however, I will continue to believe and worship the true God/Godhead of the Bible.
 
IOW; If you keep torturing the scriptures, you can make them to confess to anything.

Says the man who seems to be tortured by the posted scriptures.

The posted scriptures are very friendly to LDS theology--they don't torture them:

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 16:4-5---King James Version
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Revelation 7:14-15---King James Version
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
 
No degrees of glory taught in joseph's book of myths, and no temple ordinances taught either.


3 Nephi 11:40 (see vs 38-39 as well)

And whosoever shall declare more or less than this [Christ’s doctrine], and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; … and the gates of hell stand open to receive such …
 
Why are the wicked people of the earth sent to a kingdom of glory?


"The inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will include those who were murderers, liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers—in general, the wicked people of the earth (see D&C 76:103; Revelation 22:15). These inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will have become clean through their suffering so that they can abide telestial glory."
Jesus died and His blood cleanses us of all unrighteousness. Yet Mormonism teaches that those without faith can become clean through their own suffering. So they are clean but not forgiven? Why are clean people sent to a lower kingdom? This makes no sense and contradicts the Bible!

There isn't a telestial kingdom, people can't make themselves spiritually clean, without faith in Christ no one goes to a kingdom of glory.
 
No degrees of glory taught in joseph's book of myths, and no temple ordinances taught either.

Ho Ho Ho. Now Yitoz--you know that if you start there--it would have to end here:

Revelation 7:14-15---King James Version
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

BTW--what do you believe those dressed in white were doing in the temple?

It's 11 degrees here in middle Georgia--that's the coldest it's been in a long, long time. Is that your conditions also?
 
Do you have an official church source stating that belief?
Well, if you think the new testament is an official church, there's one. Do you want me to come up with others? God wept. Isn't that a sign of suffering?

You're clearly out of your depth.
 
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