Ceremonies marking Jan6

[Temujin]

Am I right to say that Carroll is Anglican? In the context of a tax supported state church being a theologian or religious philosopher is a "career path" which may or may not connect to a religious conviction of any kind. And while he may be a "Christian" in the sense of being baptized into the Church of England some of us demand a stricter understanding of the term Christian. It would involve a literal belief in the "good news" including the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and his propitiation for our sins. This is impossible to believe without a concurrent belief in the God who created this universe. If god is a tenant in this universe he's not God. He's got to be the Creator to be God.

So there you have it, that's my bias. It's the philosophical ground for rejecting what he has to say. But
before considering my philosophical requirements his argument is incoherent in and of itself A factor that wouldn't change even if I were a virulent new atheist.

Here it is again. I'd like somebody to step me through how this could possibly be true.

"Alexander Vilenkin offers the following thought experiment: Imagine spacetime as the surface of a sphere and then suppose that the sphere is shrinking, like a balloon losing its air. As the radius grows smaller, it eventually goes to zero. The surface of the sphere disappears and with it spacetime itself:

[ you will note that this is exactly my argument, with the singular exception of the fact that I didn't have the imagination to conceive it as a sphere]

But “nothing” in this scientific context means only that about which the theories do not tell us anything; it is not the absolute nothing referred to in creation out-of-nothing."

[brackets mine]​

How in the world do you get from Alexander Vilenkin's eminently cogent explanation to Carroll's conclusion which I underlined. Carol doesn't even attempt to connect those dots, and I don't think you can either. What we have here is a rather lengthy and wordy smokescreen of a bunch of stuff that different people have said from scientific and philosophical points of view, without ever really squarely addressing what I and Vilenkin have digested above.

This may not be a charitable conclusion, but it seems to me that Carroll wanted to leave out Vilenkin's solution to his carefully constructed conundrum but understood that someone was going to discover the oversight and refute his entire argument. So he added one more layer of smokescreen and tryed to create the impression that he addressed this argument when nothing could be further from the truth.

We both recognise our respective philosophical bias. I think your equating "Anglican" with "career Christian" is unwarranted, but that isn't really my business. All Christians are wrong from my point of view. There's no such thing as slightly less wrong.

The jump you make is that absence of space-time does not mean absolute nothing. We don't know what absence of space-time would look like, what properties it would have or how long such a state is naturally sustainable. Your dismissal of the article's conclusion is because you are unconvincable, not because the argument is faulty.

 

[ferengi]

You do know that the majority of witnesses were Republicans, including many in the Trump WH?

Avoiding the questions as you must.

 

[Thistle]

We both recognise our respective philosophical bias. I think your equating "Anglican" with "career Christian" is unwarranted, but that isn't really my business. All Christians are wrong from my point of view. There's no such thing as slightly less wrong.

The jump you make is that absence of space-time does not mean absolute nothing. We don't know what absence of space-time would look like, what properties it would have or how long such a state is naturally sustainable. Your dismissal of the article's conclusion is because you are unconvincable, not because the argument is faulty.

Of course we know what the absence of space-time is. There's no length, there's no width, and there's no depth. No moments pass by, because there are no moments to pass. And asking what it would look like is a complete non sequitur. There's no observer to observe anything, because instead of having a universe there is nothing. And nothing means nothing to observe.

Conceptually nonexistence is the most stable concept we can imagine. It's also a non sequitur to ask how long the absence of time can exist. Everything about your suggestion is fundamentally self-refuting. In defensive Carroll you were making this crazy suggestion before he did, at least so far as this thread was concerned, but that doesn't excuse him of advancing a self refuting argument either.

In short, the cosmological argument works perfectly, because this answer to it is self refuting. And I have to also point out that it is not true that at the level of quantum physics we get something from nothing. Even in quantum physics we have time and three large spatial dimensions. And furthermore I'm not aware of any kind of observation in quantum physics that occurs at a temperature of absolute zero thus there is some kind of radiation, heat. So the statement "in quantum physics we get something from nothing" is demonstrably false.

 

[Thistle]

I think your equating "Anglican" with "career Christian" is unwarranted

That wasn't exactly my point. My impression was that Carroll was some kind of a theologian, philosopher or academic paid by the state tax supported Anglican Church. Not everyone who fits that description actually believes the gospel. And if you can't get comfortable believing that God created the universe, it's hard for me to imagine how you can believe the gospel.

 

[tbeachhead]

1. President Biden is awarding the Presidential Citizens Medal to 12 people for their service in defending the Capitol and for their service as poll workers. Recipients include Capitol police Goodman, Fanone, Dunn and Edwards, and the two GA poll workers, Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, who were vilified by Trump and falsely accused of election fraud. Officer Sicknick's family will get the Medal in his place.

Biden Honors 12 'Heroes' with Presidential Citizens Medal on Anniversary of Capitol Riots

Two years after the attempted insurrection at the U.S. Capitol, the White House today is honoring a group of civilians — including Capitol and Metro police officers, election workers, and state and local officials — 'who made exemplary contributions' to American democracy that day

people.com

2. There was a brief ceremony this morning on the steps of the Capitol in remembrance of Jan6. There were short comments by the new Dem Majority leader Jeffries, by Pelosi and the Congressional Chaplain. Jeffries led the Congressman in the Pledge of Allegiance. I do not know if this was set up to be a Dem event, but the TV reporters could not find any Republican leaders in attendance, but there was at least one Republican there.

Fallen Police Officers Remembered on January 6 Anniversary

House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries (D-NY) and other Democrats marked the second anniversary of the January 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol. They gathered on the East Front steps of the building. Others in attendance one Republican, Representative Brian Fitzpatrick (PA); former House...

www.c-span.org

You certainly have to add this into the Schwanza celebration: The arrest of the mother of the only actual victim of J6, Ashli Babbitt, unarmed and shot without warning after police allowed the crowd to enter the Capitol.

 

[tbeachhead]

The insurrection will be required reading for students for many years to come.

___

Yes...Portland will be the equivalent of Kristalnacht, and this will be the new Kakistocracy's Reichstad Fire. Never forget what the fascists can do, once the gurus have disguised them and their acts from the enthralled devotees.

 

[Eightcrackers]

Yes...Portland will be the equivalent of Kristalnacht, and this will be the new Kakistocracy's Reichstad Fire. Never forget what the fascists can do, once the gurus have disguised them and their acts from the enthralled devotees.

Interesting analogies, since I compared the Jan 6 breach to the Beer Hall Putsch...

 

[tbeachhead]

Interesting analogies, since I compared the Jan 6 breach to the Beer Hall Putsch...

Yep...Now to see who is:

1. Silencing the opposition.
2. Seeking the arrest of opposing politicians.
3. Burning, looting and breaking.
4. Bringing in illegal reinforcements by the tens of thousands.
5. Changing the voting procedure to disenfranchise the opposition.
6. Controlling the press.
7. Enforcing their propaganda in the government schools.
8. Falsifying data to enforce artificial governmental control.

The evidence is clear. Your "Hitler" is allegedly in office. The fascists are in control.

 

[Temujin]

Conceptually nonexistence is the most stable concept we can imagine.

This is the nub. I disagree. It may in fact be the most unstable possibility of all. We certainly know that it doesn't exist now,, and frankly, even conceptually, it seems impossible to me that it could exist. Since we know through quantum mechanics that particles and antiparticles spring unbidden into existence, without cause, I would suggest that you are very wrong indeed to assume that nothingness is stable.

 

[inertia]

Yes...Portland will be the equivalent of Kristalnacht, and this will be the new Kakistocracy's Reichstad Fire. Never forget what the fascists can do, once the gurus have disguised them and their acts from the enthralled devotees.

...and the issues will be debated by college students for decades to come.

___

 

[Furion]

This is the nub. I disagree. It may in fact be the most unstable possibility of all. We certainly know that it doesn't exist now,, and frankly, even conceptually, it seems impossible to me that it could exist. Since we know through quantum mechanics that particles and antiparticles spring unbidden into existence, without cause, I would suggest that you are very wrong indeed to assume that nothingness is stable.

No anti-particle without a particle, so no go on you being correct.

 

[Temujin]

No anti-particle without a particle, so no go on you being correct.

It's not surprising that you don't understand quantum mechanics, since nobody does, but you can still be wrong. Which in this instance you are.

 

[Thistle]

This is the nub. I disagree. It may in fact be the most unstable possibility of all.

Is that a fact? Well then, I expect to be tripping over spaghetti monsters all day long. Because up to now I've never seen one, because they don't exist. But now that I've been informed that the non-existence of spaghetti monsters is a completely unstable possibility, I can steel myself for my soon to be appearing inevitable encounters.

And I hate to be the one to point out, that you're heretofore confidence in the non-existence of God, is a completely unstable possibility. So do the best you can to not get struck by lightning while putting the finishing touches on your argument for his nonexistence. Because as you have assured us he should be popping into existence at any moment now.

We certainly know that it doesn't exist now,, and frankly, even conceptually, it seems impossible to me that it could exist. Since we know through quantum mechanics that particles and antiparticles spring unbidden into existence, without cause, I would suggest that you are very wrong indeed to assume that nothingness is stable.

Nothing pops into existence from nothing into nothing. Nobody's observed particles or anti-particles springing into nonexistent space-time. So no you have gotten your facts wrong. Space-time is not nothing. And neither is background radiation. You are desperately grasping for a counter example which does not exist.

 

[Furion]

It's not surprising that you don't understand quantum mechanics, since nobody does, but you can still be wrong. Which in this instance you are.

It's good you admit you don't know. It makes your posts more believable. When you figure out when and how an actual particle 'pops' into existence let me know

 

[Thistle]

It's not surprising that you don't understand quantum mechanics, since nobody does, but you can still be wrong. Which in this instance you are.

By the way, the appearance of quantum mechanics turned out to be of great value theologically. Scientific and theological determinists have argued for similar reasons that there really is no freedom of decision or free will.

Quantum mechanics rushed in to prove that not everything in the universe is determined by the initial big bang and no amount of mathematical insight will ever permit us to correctly predict how history will continue on its course by further perfecting Newtonian physics.

The fact that the randomness introduced by quantum mechanics exists within the universe allows us to understand how God can bring about his purposes without truncating the free will choices of mankind and at the same time not necessarily performing an obvious miracle. This hand of God behind the scenes, this randomness according to quantum mechanics, is what theologians call "special providence." It's an extremely important Christian doctrine and it is one of the things that makes the Christian worldview cogent and satisfying.

I would also say that the symmetry to the scientific insights is extremely satisfying. Because what science calls newtonian physics theologians called "General Providence" and what scientists call quantum mechanics theologians called "Special Providence."

 

[Harry Leggs]

after the insurrection, then dying approximately eight hours later, in no way diminishes how his heroic actions against insurrectionists contributed to his demise.

What is your objective criteria for insurrectionists? It was not organized, coordinated and unarmed and no plan of action once it obtains its objective.

 

[Harry Leggs]

And over 140 police were injured by the insurrectionists, and some have not recovered.

What is your objective criteria for insurrectionist? Because it sounds like this low bar only applies to Trump supporters on J.6 and no one else. They were unarmed, there was no real plan or objective and no plan about what they were going to do if they obtained their unknown objectives.

You can blame the injuries on those Dems in power who refuse extra security. All was needed was 500 at the site and the whole thing could have been prevented and Ashli Babbitt would still be alive.

Judicial Watch: Air Force Records Reveal Tens of Thousands of Taxpayer Dollars Spent to House Ashli Babbitt Shooter and His Pet for Several Months in ‘Distinguished Visitor Suite’ at Joint Base Andrews - Judicial Watch

(Washington, DC) Judicial Watch announced today it received 31 pages of documents from the Department of the Air Force, Joint Base Andrews, MD, that show U.S. Capitol Police Lieutenant Michael Byrd was housed at taxpayer expense at Joint Base Andrews after he shot and killed U.S. Air Force...

www.judicialwatch.org

(Washington, DC) Judicial Watch announced today it received 31 pages of documents from the Department of the Air Force, Joint Base Andrews, MD, that show U.S. Capitol Police Lieutenant Michael Byrd was housed at taxpayer expense at Joint Base Andrews after he shot and killed U.S. Air Force veteran Ashli Babbitt inside the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021.


The records were obtained in response to a September 2022 Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit filed in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia after Joint Base Andrews, the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department, and the FBI failed to respond to three July 2022 FOIA requests about Byrd’s housing at Joint Base Andrews while his name as the shooter of Ashli Babbitt was being withheld from the public by the government (Judicial Watch v U.S. Department of Defense and U.S. Department of Justice (No. 1:22-cv-02948)).

 

[vibise]

Is that a fact? Well then, I expect to be tripping over spaghetti monsters all day long. Because up to now I've never seen one, because they don't exist. But now that I've been informed that the non-existence of spaghetti monsters is a completely unstable possibility, I can steel myself for my soon to be appearing inevitable encounters.

And I hate to be the one to point out, that you're heretofore confidence in the non-existence of God, is a completely unstable possibility. So do the best you can to not get struck by lightning while putting the finishing touches on your argument for his nonexistence. Because as you have assured us he should be popping into existence at any moment now.

Nothing pops into existence from nothing into nothing. Nobody's observed particles or anti-particles springing into nonexistent space-time. So no you have gotten your facts wrong. Space-time is not nothing. And neither is background radiation. You are desperately grasping for a counter example which does not exist.

So if you have never seen a particular god, then it does not exist?
Does that include the god you believe in, as no one has seen it?

 

[glenlogie]

So if you have never seen a particular god, then it does not exist?
Does that include the god you believe in, as no one has seen it?

When people saw Jesus they were seeing the second person of the Trinity

 

[Harry Leggs]

So if you have never seen a particular god, then it does not exist?
Does that include the god you believe in, as no one has seen it?

Any insight from transportation secretary Bootiejuice (what are his qualifications for that job, anyway?) as to why all the airlines were shut down today? Do you have the inside track on this like an outside hack that shut the whole shebang down? Don't say bootiejuice three times.