The gods of Psalm 82

[dberrie2020]

celestial bodies are immortal heavenly bodies [flesh and bone], and terrestrial bodies are mortal earthy bodies,[flesh and blood] it's about bodies and not heavens

The discussion is about celestial glory:

Markk said:
For those that are not LDS, this song is arguably the "theme song" for the church. It is taught to every child as soon as they are able to learn...and what it teaches, passively and indirectly that they must become Gods and Goddesses to live where HF lives. Celestial glory in the last verse is becoming a God and Goddess.

dberrie said---So that's what Paul meant here!

1 Corinthians 15:40-41---King James Version
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

 

[dberrie2020]

LOL...what a troll...Joseph Smith, the God maker, used this passage to force a God complex on weak minded folks.

Another load of hooey. Please do explain how one forces anything on a free people?

He taught that it is a tiered level of heavens,

Is that right?

2 Corinthians 12:1-2---King James Version
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

 

[Elijah the Tishbite]

Another load of hooey. Please do explain how one forces anything on a free people?



Is that right?

2 Corinthians 12:1-2---King James Version
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

1st Heaven is Rakia to a Jew it is the atmospheric heaven found in Jer 8:7, 10:13

Isa 55:10. it is were the birds fly clouds, made on 2nd day

2nd heaven shamayim to a Jew it is the starry heaven found in Jer 44:17,25; Psalm 8:3

3rd heaven shemi Hashamayim it is the heaven where God dwells found in 1 Kings 8:27, Deut. 26:15, 2 Chron 6:33 Eccl. 5:2

This passage below says Paradise is in the third heaven

2 Corth 12:

1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22

And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.

In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

REV 22: 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


The First Heaven: Earth Atmosphere Rakia to a Jew

“The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were also stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained.” (Genesis 8:2)

“Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce....”(Deuteronomy 11:17)

“The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.” (Deuteronomy 28:12)

"O LORD, when you went out from Seir, when you marched from the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds poured down water.” (Judges 5:4)

“When the heavens are shut up and there is no rain because they have sinned against you …” (1 Kings 8:35)

"Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons...” (Acts 14:17)

The Second Heaven: Outer Space shamayim to a Jew

“Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” (Genesis 15:5)

“In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun... It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other...” (Psalm 19:4, 6)

“They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens which they have loved and served....” (Jeremiah 8:2)

“The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.” (Isaiah 13:10)

The Third Heaven: God's Dwelling Place shemi Hashamayim to a Jew

“To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.” (Deuteronomy 10:14)

“… and their prayer came up to His holy dwelling place, to heaven.” (2 Chronicles 30:27)

"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.” (1 Kings 8:27)

(phrase repeated numerous times in following verses) “then hear from heaven, your dwelling place...” (1 Kings 8:30)

“The One enthroned in heaven laughs; The LORD scoffs at them.” (Psalm 2:4)

“Unto you I lift up my eyes, O You who dwell in the heavens.” (Psalm 123:1)

“In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.” (Matthew 5:16)

And I might add, he beginning of the Lord's prayer, "Our Father, Who art IN HEAVEN..."

the word “Paradise” (Gk. paradeisos) clearly means “heaven.” In 2 Cor. 12:4 it is the place to which Paul was caught up in his revelation of heaven, and in Rev. 2:7 it is the place where we find the tree of life—which is clearly heaven in Rev. 22:2, 14.

Grudem, Wayne A.. Bible Doctrine (p. 258). Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.

 

[dberrie2020]

1st Heaven is Rakia to a Jew it is the atmospheric heaven found in Jer 8:7, 10:13

Jeremiah 8:7---King James Version
7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the Lord.

Jeremiah 10:13---King James Version
13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.


I don't find anything about a "1st heaven" in there.

2nd heaven shamayim to a Jew it is the starry heaven found in Jer 44:17,25; Psalm 8:3

Jeremiah 44:17---King James Version
17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jeremiah 44:25---King James Version
25 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.

Psalm 8:3---King James Version
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

I don't find anything about a "2nd heaven" there.

3rd heaven shemi Hashamayim it is the heaven where God dwells found in 1 Kings 8:27, Deut. 26:15, 2 Chron 6:33 Eccl. 5:2

This passage below says Paradise is in the third heaven

2 Corth 12:

1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

And that is the third heaven--where God dwells--which is LDS theology.

IOW--tiered levels of heaven.

 

[Markk]

Another load of hooey. Please do explain how one forces anything on a free people?

LOL your are not free. If your were free, you would not be trolling like you do, and you would instead of asking the same questions over and you should be able to not only expound on what you believe, but what others believe. Think about it, you have been here for what a dozen years, and you keep repeating the same question even though they have been answered scores of times.

I don’t think you are that ignorant, in fact I believe you are a smart man…but the only other option is, that you are not in a place, where you can objectively have a honest and real discussion, instead of crayon colored pasted verses over and over again.

 

[Markk]

2 Corinthians 12:1-2---King James Version
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

And you have never been told what thats means? I have told you several times…are you that indoctrinated that you have be obtuse over and over again?

 

[Richard7]

Thank you for giving us the Second Anointing ...


Easy, the second part is about marriage and sealing on this earth, you stated we can become Gods in heaven have many virgins... not exactly what you're claiming good buddy...

D&C 132:19 which is explained as the second anointing and temple marriage.... not that it happens during the first Temple Endowment and initiatory... but the wording is exactly what the second anointing promises within that covenant. It's obvious by reason from D&C 132, that at some point in the future one can be Promised, thrones, kingdoms, principalities and power...


D&C 132
This is not the Second Comforter. This opens the door to the Second Comforter. Now what we read yesterday on pages 149-151 was, in the Prophet’s Teachings, then shall it be his privilege to receive the Second Comforter. Now the fact that this happens to someone does not mean that they get the Second Comforter, but it becomes their privilege, i.e., they are the kind of people who have progressed to the point that they are so spiritually in tune that they can have the personage of Christ to attend them. Now Joseph Smith had that. How many times he saw Christ I wouldn’t know. And even He will reveal the Father and they will take up their abode with him. They’ll see the Father and the Son. They’ll have the visions of eternity. They’ll have communion with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn and so on. The language of that passage.

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However, Doctrine and Covenants 131 and 132 indicated that this exclusion deprived the men (who had received the previous ordinances) of the highest kingdom of glory — godhood. The higher ordinance was necessary to confirm the revealed promises of "kingly powers" (i.e., godhood) received in the endowment's initiatory ordinances. Godhood was therefore the meaning of this higher ordinance, or second anointing, for the previously revealed promises in Doctrine and Covenants 132:19—26 implicitly referred not to those who had been sealed in celestial marriage but to those who had been sealed and ordained "kings and priests," "queens and priestesses" to God. Such individuals would necessarily have received the "second anointing"; "Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them." This special priesthood ordinance was first administered on 28 September 1843 to Joseph and Emma Smith. The History of the Church gives a discreet account of this event:

Indeed, the conditional nature of the second anointing has become even more pronounced within the last two generations, due to an apparent reinterpretation of the "Holy Spirit of promise." "Elijah's seal" is not seen as Joseph Smith saw it — as making one's "calling and election sure" — but is now explained as the Holy Ghost. In the writings of twentieth-century Church authorities,107 the Holy Spirit of promise, or Holy Ghost, has now become a "divine censor" which both seals and unseals ordinances according to an everchanging judgment of an individual's worthiness. Given this viewpoint, it is unclear when the Doctrine and Covenants 132:26 punishments of "destruction in the flesh" and "bufletings of Satan" would be applied for sins other than the unpardonable one. A strict interpretation would hold for immediate punishment after someone who received the second anointing and Holy Spirit of Promise sealing committed "any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies." If the second anointing is "unsealed" however, it seems that these persons would no longer be subject to these prescribed penalties. Moreover, by ascribing a conditional stance to the second anointing, it would be difficult to perceive it as significantly different from the promissory anointing received in the regular endowment.

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scholarsarchive.byu.edu

 

[brotherofJared]

I believe he is the guy you LDS generally cite as an authority for Psalm 82 council of the gods.

There are a lot of people who agree with Heiser. We quote him, much to his chagrin, because he is also an evangelical. It seems that your doctrine doesn't fair well in the critical mind regardless of religion.

 

[brotherofJared]

Baloney, the temples and endowments are for becoming a God and Goddess.

Baloney, the temples and endowments are for making covenants with God to follow his teachings as contained in the scriptures.

It is about gaining eternal life and going back to live with their HF

Yes. I believe that's what all Christian religions are about.

becoming like him for the men, and that families are forever mostly a selling point for the women.

Bah. Nothing could be further from the truth. You still haven't explained how being equally good as God is good, is a bad thing. Forever families is a selling point for anyone who cares about their family.

 

[brotherofJared]

If 99% of Mormons and Christians alike, have never heard of MH and the psalms 82 argument..

Thanks for agreeing with @dberrie2020 point. So, what's your beef?

 

[brotherofJared]

Why keep the most important teaching of the church secret Ralf?

They aren't secret. The teachings are contained in the scriptures. They are available to anyone who wants to read them.

Don't you believe a new prospecting member that is going to give 10% or more of their income and time to the church should know the church teaches that men can become Gods

They do know. You keep quoting from our gospel fundamentals manual. It's right there for anyone to read. That's called transparency.

 

[brotherofJared]

Ralf we are discussing the D&C...

Actually, this thread is about Ps 82. You seem to be drifting.

 

[brotherofJared]

Virgin/s is the word that Joesph chose.

Obviously, the relevancy of that statement evades you. But the twist you're applying suggests that God will give them virgins? Is that what you're thinking? That's not what it says, but it does seem as though you intentionally missed the point of them being virgins.

 

[brotherofJared]

You lost me, you said we can be Gods and have virgins in heaven.

Yes. He does that on purpose. It's a form of distraction.

 

[brotherofJared]

LOL...what a troll...Joseph Smith, the God maker, used this passage to force a God complex on weak minded folks

Indeed. LOL. what a troll.

 

[brotherofJared]

celestial bodies are immortal heavenly bodies [flesh and bone], and terrestrial bodies are mortal earthy bodies,[flesh and blood] it's about bodies and not heavens

Uh huh. And did you just make that up on your own?

First, it's about the resurrection. There's nothing in there about earthly bodies except what you imagine. Second, it's about the glory each body will have in the resurrection. Every body will be resurrected in incorruption, sown in corruption, raised in incorruption, so in that state, every body will be perfect never to die or decay. But those bodies will not all have the same glory, but they will all be human. I wouldn't consider the moon as being earthly, we're talking about glory as it pertains to light. Some will be resurrected and be the source of light. Others will be a reflection of light and lastly, there will be those whose light is so small, it is barely perceptible and distant.

 

[brotherofJared]

And you have never been told what thats means? I have told you several times…are you that indoctrinated that you have be obtuse over and over again?

We simply disagree with you about what it means. We have told you several times ... are you that indoctrinated that you have to be obtuse over and over again?

 

[brotherofJared]

1st Heaven is Rakia to a Jew it is the atmospheric heaven found in Jer 8:7, 10:13

Isa 55:10. it is were the birds fly clouds, made on 2nd day

2nd heaven shamayim to a Jew it is the starry heaven found in Jer 44:17,25; Psalm 8:3

3rd heaven shemi Hashamayim it is the heaven where God dwells found in 1 Kings 8:27, Deut. 26:15, 2 Chron 6:33 Eccl. 5:2

This passage below says Paradise is in the third heaven

Paul does not live in the Old Testament. You can imagine all you want, what he meant, but it's clear that the 3rd heaven means something completely different than what was viewed in the Old Testament.

Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

I suspect that neither you nor your theology knows what the tree of life or the paradise of God is. Neither are in heaven.

Revelation 22

And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.

In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Again, it doesn't appear that you know anything about the tree of life or its location. Tell me, how does the leaves of the tree "heal the nations" if there it's in heaven?

REV 22: 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

yep. Not in heaven.

 

[brotherofJared]

LOL your are not free.

LOL. You're not free.

 

[organgrinder]

There are a lot of people who agree with Heiser. We quote him, much to his chagrin, because he is also an evangelical. It seems that your doctrine doesn't fair well in the critical mind regardless of religion.

And I believe he disavowed your interpretation of what he said.