Yep and the real church isn't hidden but your institution is not the real church. Oh rubbish the RCC is not the only history of Christian faith at all.
The origins of the RC Denomination?
- Thread starter Mik
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dingoling.
Well-known member
If the real church isn't hidden then why is there not a complete history of it from the present to the time of Jesus and the apostles?
Oh my goodness because and this has been stated previously the evil RCC destroyed their records. But the real church survived the deliberate attempts to destroy it, as it always will. It is not a demonination and your institution is just another denomination.
dingoling.
Well-known member
Yes and the world is flat and we didn't land on the moon. Are there nymore truths we should add to the list?
I don't know you are an RC and they didn't accept a lot of scientific knowledge. They tended to treat real scientists badly. But you seem to think the world is flat and we didn't land on the moon, you often say so. I will take you at your words I have seen how you do not know the difference between italian and latin. Poor defense of the RC false history from you.
LifeIn
Well-known member
In fact the opposite is true. It was the Catholic Church who fostered science, such as heliocentrism over geocentrism. It was certain evangelical protestants who opposed all findings related to evolution, and as we recently saw, treated vaccine researchers so badly.
dingoling.
Well-known member
A new day
Super Member
There is a good reason I don't believe in evolution. God but spoke the heavens and the earth and all they contain, into existence. each Scriptural kind can only reproduce within certain fixed boundaries. Cats cannot mate with dogs, pigs with apes, etc. This limitation is exactly what we find in our world.
dingoling.
Well-known member
Evolution has been proven wrong.
LifeIn
Well-known member
The Catholic Church takes no position on evolution, other than to say that Adam and Eve were real unique individuals, and any theory that denies that truth is to be rejected. However the Church is supportive of scientific research in general, including research into evolution.
A new day
Super Member
We can agree that God is the Creator, and that it was He who created man and woman.
Constantine's own words confirm the allegations in the OP. Let's have a look at what he has to say (again):
Let's review:
Unam Sanctam:
“Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
Constantine’s position on his relationship with humanity:
and since it seems to me a very serious thing that in those provinces which Divine Providence has freely entrusted to my devotedness,
but also against me myself, to whose care, by His heavenly Decree, He has entrusted the direction of all human affairs
I myself, then, was the instrument whose services He chose, and esteemed suited for the accomplishment of his will.
Believing, therefore, that this most excellent service had been confided to me as a special gift, I proceeded as far as the regions of the East, which, being under the pressure of severer calamities, seemed to demand still more effectual remedies at my hands.
I have written to them under divine direction. (I though only the pope/magisterium could operate under divine direction?)
through the power of Almighty God, and at the same time the counsel and aid which he is pleased on many occasions to administer through our agency;
Constantine considering himself numbered amongst the bishops:
I call on Divine Providence to assist me in the task, while I interrupt your dissension in the character of a minister of peace.
at which I myself was present, as one among yourselves
I assembled at the city of Nicaea most of the bishops; with whom I myself also, who am but one of you,
Constantine determining the form and format of worship:
I shall render it most clear to all, both to Caecilian, and to those who are acting against him, by reading a perfectly plain judgement, as to what and what kind of worship is to be given to the Supreme God, and with what manner of service He is pleased.
What can be done by me more in accordance with my constant practice, and the very office of a Prince, than, after having driven away errors and destroyed all rash opinions, to bring it about that all men should show forth true religion and simplicity in concord, and to render to Almighty God the worship which is His due? (Is not one of the pope’s titles Successor to the Prince of the Apostles? Peter did not consider himself a prince, but a servant.)
My design then was, first, to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity;
Permit me, who am his servant, to bring my task to a successful issue, under the direction of his Providence, that I may be enabled, through my exhortations, and diligence, and earnest admonition, to recall his people to communion and fellowship.
I shall also make these persons see what worship and what kind of worship is to be given to the Divinity,
I shall endeavor with all my power to cause that what is contained in the Divine Law may be preserved inviolate,
Shouldn’t the pope determine what kind of worship should be given to God, in concert with the Magisterium?
Constantine rendering judgements upon the clergy:
Those same persons who now stir up the people in such a war as to bring it about that the supreme God is not worshipped with the veneration that is His due, I shall destroy and dash in pieces.
I shall without any delay cause those men whom I shall ascertain to have acted against that which is right and against religion itself, and whom I shall discover to have been guilty of violence in their worship, to undergo the destruction which they have deserved by their madness and reckless obstinacy.
since I am going most diligently to search into the things which concern not merely the people, but also those clerics who are in the first places, and shall pass judgement in accordance with that which is most clearly in the interests of truth and religion.
I will immediately send some one who shall depose you by my command, and shall remove you from your place.
I formerly gave command that certain bishops should be sent from Gaul, and that the opposing parties who were contending persistently and incessantly with each other
I guess we could call these miscellaneous pope-y statements:
For I was aware that, if I should succeed in establishing, according to my hopes, a common harmony of sentiment among all the servants of God,
I have judged that it ought to be the first object of my endeavors, that unity of faith, sincerity of love, and community of feeling in regard to the worship of Almighty God
I beseech you, therefore, in post haste, as the phrase goes, to assemble together, without any delay, in formal synod; so that you may support those who require your assistance.
Nothing shall be omitted on my part to further the interests of our religion. I have done all that you recommended in your letters. I have sent to those bishops whom you specified, directing them to repair to the council for the purpose of deliberating with you upon ecclesiastical matters.
whom I have commanded to hasten to Rome for this purpose, he may be heard, as you may understand to be in accordance with the most holy law.
Nevertheless it is expedient that your Prudences should be made acquainted with my opinion also.
The OP contends that the RCC is nothing more than warmed-over Roman paganism. The claim is backed up with quotes from Constantine himself. The RCC claims it was divinely instituted by Jesus. Refuting the OP should be easy; no interpretation of scripture is required for this. All you would have to do is provide letters from the Bishop of Rome, addressed to the universal church, from prior to circa 313 A.D. that uses the same type of language as that written by the Pontifex Maximus of the Roman religion, Constantine. There has to be a papal bull or something lying around, no?
pilgrim
Well-known member
Romans 13: 1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Well, look at that. Seems that his claims were right.
Your clergy has no God-given authority. If it did, then you would have a bishop of Rome writing such things as this prior to 313 AD:
and since it seems to me a very serious thing that in those provinces which Divine Providence has freely entrusted to my devotedness,
but also against me myself, to whose care, by His heavenly Decree, He has entrusted the direction of all human affairs
I myself, then, was the instrument whose services He chose, and esteemed suited for the accomplishment of his will.
Believing, therefore, that this most excellent service had been confided to me as a special gift, I proceeded as far as the regions of the East, which, being under the pressure of severer calamities, seemed to demand still more effectual remedies at my hands.
I have written to them under divine direction. (I though only the pope/magisterium could operate under divine direction?)
through the power of Almighty God, and at the same time the counsel and aid which he is pleased on many occasions to administer through our agency
Well, look at that. You posting a scripture verse proves nothing. Remember, this is a history exercise. A papal bull from prior to 313 would end this conversation toot suite.
LifeIn
Well-known member
This logic is illogical. The absence of a PayPal bull prior to 313 does not prove your point. It is only you setting up a straw man so that can easily knock it down and proclaim victory.
dingoling.
Well-known member
Do you have God given authority?
This logic goes straight to the heart of the matter. I'm looking for historical, first-hand written proof of a bishop of Rome exercising universal authority over the church. It doesn't have to be a papal bull. Just produce a letter using the same flowery language as Pope Constantine. I have provided over 2 dozen quotes of Constantine exercising his authority over the church. Where are the ones from your popes?
What does God-given authority have to do with it? This is a history exercise.
LifeIn
Well-known member
What you have illustrated is Constantine exercising (or at least thinking he is exercising) worldly power - to send such and such Bishop here or there, or call a synod. There is no evidence of Constantine exercising doctrinal authority. Which doctrine of the Church today was ordered by Constantine? Anything in the Catechism? In any official Church document? Any historical evidence of such a doctrine from Constantine being adopted universally? No.
Oh sure you can believe that and deny the truth.
Nicholas Copernicus and Galileo Galilei were two scientists who printed books that later became banned. Copernicus faced no persecution when he was alive because he died shortly after publishing his book. Galileo, on the other hand, was tried by the Inquisition after his book was published. Both scientists held the same theory that the Earth revolved around the sun, a theory now known to be true. However, the Church disapproved of this theory because the Holy Scriptures state that the Earth is at the center, not the Sun. from inquiries journal
I mean the RCC in its revisionist history has probably whitewashed their reaction but the truth is out there.